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  • #173628
    Bryan
    Participant

    Thanks Big Al, very helpful, particularly the reminder about open order order vs skirmish and the follow on issues.

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    #179255
    Bert
    Participant

    Hi,

    After a recent play , i have some questions about charge :

    1 – Assume a cavalry unit charged and won the combat. There is an enemy unit on his proximity left, but see another enemy unit farther away on its right. Can it freely rotate right by 45  and charge this enemy unit ?

    2- Can a Cavalry unit charge simultaneously the flanks of 2 enemy Large units (line formation) ? (in the Diagram P.63, assume the 2 units are Large)

    3- Must a unit in a Broken Brigade form square if charged by a cavalry ?

    Thks

    
    
    				
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    #179261
    Big Al
    Participant

    1) If the cavalry is within proximity, it can only move into its front or rear quarter. The rule on page 36 states that it is obliged to move “more or less” straight forward or straight back. So, whether it can charge and which unit it can charge, depends totally on which unit falls within its front quarter. According to your example, it sounds like the unit that is further away is outside of the cavalry’s front quarter, which means that it cannot charge it.

    2) Yes it can. But don’t assume that a large unit has any greater depth than a standard unit. Depth only serves to accommodate the model figures. The cavalry may not have a choice but to contact the second unit, but you align the centre of the cavalry front with the centre of the target unit flank. Contacting two units in the flank may work against you. Both enemy units will fight with only half of their attacks, which is the same number as a single unit’s full attacks, but will have a -1 to hit modifier, meaning that they will hit on 5+. They cannot be supported.  Your cavalry will hit on 3+. Remember that cavalry always falls back if the combat is drawn.

    3) If it has the Must Form Square Special Rule, which all Napoleonic infantry has, then it must form square. Just because a unit is part of a broken brigade does not mean that it cannot fight or does not follow its training. All it means is that the brigade cannot advance or initiate combat (charge) with the enemy. If it is attacked, it can and will react as normal.

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    #179262
    Bert
    Participant

    About first question : even if the unit in proximity was in Square formation (and not a real threat for the Cavalry)  the proximity rule needs to be applied ?

    Thank’s for theses clarifications.

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    #179263
    Nat
    Participant

    Do tiny infantry have must form square?  I thought they could only form skirmish formation?

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    #179266
    Big Al
    Participant

    @Bert – Yes, the Proximity Rule is all important and always applies.

    @Nat – I assume we are talking Napoleonic, so yes. All regular infantry has the Must Form Square Rule, even those in Open Order. There isn’t a formation called “skirmisher”. A unit that is skirmishing is a regular small or tiny unit that is operating in Open Order.

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    #179270
    Nat
    Participant

    Ok got my pdf rule versionon to the iPad!

    Sorry the formation is just called skirmish order as stated pg 22 in the v2 pdf.   Pg 24 makes it quite clear that tiny units can only be in skirmish order, so they can’t form square.

    also in Napoleonic you can have normal and large units in skirmish order…

     

    edit – @Bert pg 73, sweeping advance can only be done forwards for 1 movement but stops short of enemy units.  Cavalry have sweeping advance and charge rule which allows them to contact and fight enemies, but still only in the forward direction.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Nat.
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    #179274
    Big Al
    Participant

    No, it states that they can also form into March Column.

    I understand what you are saying, but look at page 89 and the Form Square Rule. Nowhere in the book does it say that a tiny unit cannot Form Square. Page 88 tells you that only regular units can Form Square.

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    #179277
    Nat
    Participant

    So we have 2 conflicting absolutes… on one hand tiny units section says they can only can form march column (but only on roads and tracks… unlike all other units that can form it any where) or their default of skirmish order.   Then on the other hand you have the statement that all regular units can form square.

     

    personally I’d take the specific (tiny unit rule) over the general (all regulars can form square ) …however this is something I’m going to bring up with my gaming club (we’ve not had a game yet only getting in to the game in lockdown) and go with majority view.

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    #179279
    Big Al
    Participant

    No we don’t. Must Form Square is a charge reaction.

    The part that states Tiny units can only keep to Skirmish Order is advisory. It is not part of the game rules, or it would be repeated in the rule fo Forming Square.

    However, as you know, BP allows you to make changes and tweak them to suit your play, so you do what you like, really

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    #179393
    Phillip S Myers
    Participant

    Another skirmish formation related question. In the main rule book some terrain (like woods) can only be entered in skirmish formation. Many units cannot normally use that formation, but are specifically allowed to to enter terrain the otherwise could not.
    My question: do they suffer any disadvantages for being in a formation they can’t normally use? Or are line troops just as good in woods as specially trained light infantry? I don’t think they should be. Have I missed something, or do I need to house rule it?

    thanks,

    Phil

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    #179394
    Big Al
    Participant

    No, there is no penalty. The line infantry are trained to operate in a loose formation in certain terrain conditions. When they leave the terrain they must adopt their default formation as soon as they can. The skirmish units already have certain advantages in their favour already – dice modifiers for shooting and being shot at. In woods all units count as being in cover. When it comes to shooting, just because they are in skirmish or open order, line infantry do not count as being skirmishers, so don’t benefit from the modifiers that skirmishers get.

    If one attacks another (charges) the defending unit counts the cover until they are forced to retire, similar to the uphill advantage.

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    #179395
    Phillip S Myers
    Participant

    Big Al,

    Thank you, that is what I was looking for, that the line does not benefit from being in skirmish formation when shot at is their disadvantage in relation to real skirmishers.  Just wanting to clarify everybody gets the bonus to save from woods. Does everybody also get not a clear target when shot at, and I think was concluded above skirmishers and not a clear target ARE cumulative?

    do you happen to have a reference to where the line skirmishing does not benefit from skirmish formation?

    Thanks,

    Phil

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    #179397
    Big Al
    Participant

    The line aren’t skirmishers, so the modifiers don’t apply to them. They aren’t skirmishing, they have just adopted Open Order to move through the terrain. Skirmishers are trained to operate in the way that they do and are normally in small or tiny units. There can be exceptions, where a full regiment of light infantry are working as a line unit. Just because the line is in Open Order (I prefer to use that term rather than skirmish formation. It makes things clearer) doesn’t mean that they suddenly become better shots (+1 to shooting) or become an unclear target. Ok, a dense unit in line or column would be an easier target than one spread out, but a unit of specialist skirmishers would not only be spread out, but also making as much use of the terrain as they could.

    The author clarified this on the old forum and the old Yahoo Group many years ago.

    The real problem is that there should be a Special Rule called “skirmishers”.

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    #179398
    Nat
    Participant

    That makes sense, however in the Clash of Eagles light infantry do have the special note – skirmish – yet you also have Russians Line Units with the rule ‘poor skirmisher’ which states that they dont benefit from the +1 bonus for skirmishers shooting…. when they can only do that in mixed formation (Russians dont have the option to form compisite LI regiments like the French or British)… which says that the author (Adrian McWalter) who wrote all 3 of the Napoleonic supplements thinks that all skirmishers do get it as default.

    The other thing page 49, of BP v2, makes it clear that the -1 to hit skirmishers & the -1 for target not being clear is the same modifier and doesnt stack….. so a line unit forced in to open order in a forest get the -1 for either being in the forest or being in skirmish order not both!

    Its also worth noting that page 90 of the v2 book makes it clear that shooting (at 1 die only) from a unit in mixed formation is from skirmishers, and shots AT the unit in the front quarter (except for canons) is worked out against skirmishers not line or column.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Nat.
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