Rules Question Thread
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Tagged: Breakthrough Move
- This topic has 272 replies, 36 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by Stefan Hückelheim.
July 2, 2018 at 7:05 pm #140303
Good to hear. The way it is written actually implies +1 to the roll to hit , which makes them very powerful. At best, it could have meant +1 combat die, which would have been less powerful, but as you say, adding it to Combat Resolution makes sense. I’m glad that has been clarified. It is obviously one of those things that has slipped through the final checks. You know, makes perfect sense to the author because he knows the context, but forgets that nobody else does. Not bad if it is the only one!
I really should get this book, but I rarely use the rules in them, only the scenarios. Although we now have a member who really likes to add the suggested rules in the books.July 2, 2018 at 7:19 pm #140304IgorParticipant
I`ve read this part of rules. The truth is yours.
Well. In game I allowed enemy to shoot my guys with +1 to hit… but it didn
t save him from defeat. Because Wellingtons tactic is very powerfull itself. Especially when it is done in the right way.July 3, 2018 at 11:03 am #140323mark boltonParticipant
Interesting , AB2 shows veteran as being +1 hth and reliable @6 pts as an upgrade ie pp131 for Prussian cavalry. Reliable @4 pts and +1 hth @ 2pts + veteran for 6 pts.July 3, 2018 at 1:02 pm #140359Charge The GunsParticipant
Irrespective of how you read the rules I would feel a terrible cheese monger if I tried to claim a bonus for my men, distributed in an irregular fashion around a BUA, firing down the ranks of a passing infantry line.
Now, if you think enfilading fire is a bonus as no on likes to be fired on from the flank, then I withdraw my cheese-based accusation. But I think the enfilde rule needs changing in that case.July 3, 2018 at 1:18 pm #140363IgorParticipant
Well, if unit in building is treated as in square formation, it makes enfilading fire possible.
But passing unit cannot be enfiladed. Enfilade fire nedds a target unit to finish hes movement in sutable zone.July 3, 2018 at 2:45 pm #140367
That’s right. Traversing Fire is possible, but with the enemy moving, enfilading could not be claimed.July 3, 2018 at 3:01 pm #140370RKHaryettParticipant
Regarding enfilade and traversing fire, my bad. I was not precise with my description of the situation. The French unit which received enfilading fire from the BUA ended it’s move in a position where it could receive that type of fire. The unit was attempting to bypass the BUA in which case it might have received traversing fire but the dice gods were not kind and the unit ended it’s movement in a position to be enfiladed. As the French player receiving the enfilading fire, I had no issues, in the circumstances, with the Austrians claiming the double dice bonus.July 19, 2018 at 7:36 am #141491
A Charged Question
This should be a simple beginners question but a group of us have been playing BP for a number of years, starting with the main rule book, then both Albion Triumphant books, now we have started playing using Clash of Eagles and yet we still don’t have consensus on this simple, basic rule which is interpreted in two (sometimes three) different ways within the group.
Over the years both interpretations below have been discussed at length, often without either interpretation convincing everyone. Even where historical examples have been cited from battles covering a hundred year period or more, these have only served to reinforce one viewpoint or the other.
Clearly, as we still play regularly, we work this out in a gentlemanly fashion by politely using whichever interpretation causes the least distress to any player who feels very strongly about it. However, with a big game coming up with players from other groups attending, we would really appreciate an official rule interpretation to reduce confusion. (even if we have to house rule it on the day to keep some people happy)
So, here is the problem we have regarding charges;
Looking at the diagram on Pg 59, the blue players unit is directly to the front quarter and facing the front of the opposing unit and charges the front, no problem. There is also no issue with the unit in the Left Flank Quarter making a charge to the flank.
The problem comes when the unit to the east is further north than in the diagram, say, next to the first unit as it might as a support. Let’s say it is facing south and is north of a line drawn across the front of the opposing players unit. Let’s say also that while the unit leader is in the opposing players Right Flank Quarter, a significant part (say 1/3) lies in the Front Quarter and it is within 12”. I’ve added an altered version of the Pg 59 diagram to show this in case this text is confusing Note that I have also moved the first Blue unit to make the issue clearer.
The question is; can the unit to the east charge the opposing units Flank.
Interpretation 1, Cannot charge; As the unit to the east lies in front of a line drawn across the front of the opposing unit, as per the diagram on Pg 40, it is in front of the opposing unit and the rules state “if a unit begins its turn to the front of an enemy formation it will attempt to charge to the front”. Note that front is not capitalised and therefore does not mean the Front Quarter, but the simple English term front, obviously as per Pg 40. The Leader model would need to be behind this line to charge the Flank.
Interpretation 2, Can charge; The Unit Leader is in the opposing units Right Flank Quarter as per the diagram on Pg 58 and Para 4 of Pg 59 and this diagram and the paragraph next to it make no mention of a line across the front, only quarters. The term front, Front and Front Quarter seem to be interchangeable as in the diagram. It will complete the move within it’s Front Quarter.
A further wrinkle; If the unit were closer, say corner to corner with the opposing unit, could it charge. If it is allowed to charge as above then after contacting and any shifting to maximise contact, although the Leader Model will be within its original Front Quarter, part of the unit would slide out. Does the unit stay in its Front Quarter with the Leader possibly not contacting directly. Does it, like ignoring individual model movement during a charge, ignore this and slide. Or does this prevent a single move charge, requiring the unit to reposition, then charge.
An official answer or at least one with rules quotes would be greatly appreciated. So, can it charge or not and if it can, what if starts closer.
Attachments:July 19, 2018 at 11:00 am #141507
The unit to the east can charge the flank. It is simple, really. The majority of the unit falls within the target unit’s flank quarter (Quarters are all that really matter), including the unit leader, which marks the centre of the unit’s front.
The rule is that the unit must fall in the quarter of the unit face that it wishes to charge at the start of its turn. So, that criteria is met.
The second criteria is that the target is in line of sight (that is the long straight line you mention on page 40), which it is and the third criteria is that the target is within the charging unit’s front quarter, which means that it can take one direct move into contact (yes, there is a little straightening up to do at the end, but that is allowed).
I don’t really see how any other interpretation can be drawn.July 19, 2018 at 1:30 pm #141529
Thanks very much for the clear response Big Al.
In truth, most of us see it that way but the alternate interpretation that it can’t has been strongly adhered to by one or two players. At least we now have an independent, authoritative view.July 19, 2018 at 4:29 pm #141540
Well, for those one or two players that you have mentioned, who need proof of what I say, give them the rule book and tell them to read the 4th paragraph on page 59. It states quite clearly that you settle the “dispute” by determining which quarter the charging unit leader starts the move in. Their alternative is incorrect.
The answers are in the book if you look.July 20, 2018 at 2:26 am #141581
Thanks. Will do.July 23, 2018 at 5:55 pm #141724GraestokeParticipant
Page 95 of AT volume 2 suggests that you gain +1 from attack column and +1 from pas de charge under the paragraph titled The Speed of French Assaukt Columns.July 23, 2018 at 8:56 pm #141740
It is only one not both. All attack climbs get the +1, and the Pas de Charge was done to add some patriotic flavour. You don’t count both, you get one or the other.
That is what the author said on the old forum. I don’t know if he is on this new forum, but you will find him on Facebook on the Napoleonic Gamer group as well as the Black Powder group. Look him up and he’ll confirm what I have said.August 12, 2018 at 12:02 pm #143056MareckiParticipant
In Clash of the Eagles page 104, Pas the Charge rule allows You to add +2 to commander’s SR. Maybe its final satement 🙂
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