Flamethrower and moral check

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  • #184127
    Steiner
    Participant

    Dear Comrades,

    If a flamethrower attack wipes out more than half the enemy squad, a moral check is required and then there is again a moral check for panic.

    So, there are two consecutive moral checks in the same target? Is this correct?

    #184129
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Yes I think that is correct.

    #184133
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    I had always read the rule as a modification to point 7 of the shotting procedure “target checks morale”
    “…
    SHOOTING
    SHOOTING PROCEDURE
    1. Declare target
    2. Target reacts
    3. Measure range and open fire
    4. Roll to hit
    5. Roll to damage
    6. Target takes casualties
    7. Target checks morale
    …”

    “…The target of a flamethrower must always check its morale once firing has been worked out and pin markers allocated as described above. Note that a morale check is required regardless of the number of casualties caused…” To me seems a modification to “target checks morale”, not an additional morale check.

    But now I’m not sure…

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steeljackal.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steeljackal.
    #184136
    Master Chief
    Participant

    There is a slight modification in the FAQs:

    Page 67, Flamethrower special rule, last paragraph on page. The first sentence should be changed to read as follows:

    A unit hit by a flamethrower must check its morale once firing has been worked out and pin markers allocated, as described above.

     

    I have always thought it was 2 morale checks, but see what you mean. Now I am not sure 😅

    #184137
    Nat
    Participant

    I’ve always read it that the flamethrower basically counts it as if the target has lost 50%+ of the unit even if they hadnt (or are a vehicle)… IE just the 1 moral check.

    #184139
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Yes I can see that reading, but it can also be read the other way … a flamethrower hit always requires a morale check (even if there were no casualties), and if the attack causes the target to take 50% or more casualties, the target takes another morale check.

     

    Looking at the wording in the FAQ ( which just changed from target to “unit hit” to require an actual hit and not just being a target):

    Page 67, Flamethrower special rule, last paragraph on page. The first sentence should be changed to read as follows:

    A unit hit by a flamethrower must check its morale once firing has been worked out and pin markers allocated, as described above.

    Since pin markers are allocated before rolling for damage and taking casualties, the unit hit by a flamethrower has to take a morale check before determining how much damage is scored. If it survives the morale check, roll for damage and if it suffers 50% or more casualties, it takes another morale check.

    #184144
    Nat
    Participant

    So we are looking at.

    Firing – work out range /mods etc

    roll to hit – calculate number of hits.

    PINs – work out and apply number of pins

    Flamethrower moral check – moral check on target

    Damage – multiply flamethrower hit out to number of damage rolls required.

    roll number of hits to see if damage is caused

    -remove casualties (remembering exceptional damage)

    Casualty moral check – if target unit lost 50% or more models check moral

    Flamethrower fuel check – see if its run out of fuel.

    And people thought flamethrowers where nasty before!

    EDIT – or to put it another way:

    SHOOTING PROCEDURE
    1. Declare target
    2. Target reacts
    3. Measure range and open fire
    4. Roll to hit

    4b. Roll for flamethrower moral
    5. Roll to damage
    6. Target takes casualties
    7. Target checks morale

    8. Roll for flamethrower fuel.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Nat.
    #184146
    Steiner
    Participant

    Ok, let me try to sum up with an example so I can see this better:

    A flamethrower team advances and gets within 3 inches of an enemy infantry squad od 10 veteran infantry men.

    SHOOTING PROCEDURE
    1. Declare target
    2. Target reacts
    3. Measure range and open fire
    4. Roll to hit:

    Modifiers normal hit 3+`but -1 for having moved and +1 for at point blank range. So, it remains a 3+ We roll and hit. We roll a D6 to multiply the hit. We roll and get a 5.

    4b. Roll for flamethrower moral

    We roll a D3+1 for extra PINS. We roll a 3, so it´s 2+1=3 extra PINS in total

    The veterans have a moral of 10 but -3 PINS = 7. We roll and get a 6. They don´t run away yet.

    5. Roll to damage

    The veterans need a +5 to be damaged but +3 penetration of the flamethrower = an easy 2+

    We roll 5 dice for the number of hits and we get: 2, 3, 3,  4, 5 This means 5 death soldiers.

    6. Target takes casualties

    The squad of 10 is reduced to 5.

    7. Target checks morale

    Because half the unit has been killed we roll for a moral check.

    Veterans 10 but -3PINS = 7 We roll an 8. They don´t pass the moral check this time and they run away!

    8. Roll for flamethrower fuel.

    We roll a 3. The Flamethrower is still in the game with enough fuel.

     

    Please, feel free to copy an paste this example to modify any mistakes I have done with the rules. Thanks a lot. You are helping me very much understand this part of the game.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Steiner.
    #184160
    Greg S
    Participant

    The rule continues “Note that a morale check is required regardless of the number of casualties caused and even if no damage has been suffered.”

    I read that part of the rule to suggest that the morale check takes place after casualties have been suffered and that only one morale check is required.

     

     

    #184168
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    I’m with Greg on this – multiple triggers for a test/check doesn’t mean multiple tests/checks, just that you’re definitely taking that test/check.

    It’s the same as with order tests – normal trigger is having a pin, Tank Fear requires you to take the test whether pinned or not, Tiger Fear requires you to take the test as if you have a pin/additional pin, Shirkers require you to always take the test even if no pins – If your pinned shirkers want to charge a Tiger, that’s not four tests.  It’s one test with a -5 modifier (three for Tank Fear, one for Tiger Fear, and one for the pin) – good luck passing that one.

    Example of an FAQ response showing an order test with two triggers still being a single test (one man turret plus entering from reserve):

    “If a vehicle with the One-man Turret special rule is in reserve, does it
    need to take two separate tests to advance onto the table? And what if
    it’s in a first wave instead?
    A vehicle in Reserve already has to take a test with a -1 modifier
    anyway, so the One-man Turret rule effectively has no effect on
    vehicles in Reserve. If the vehicle is in a first wave, it must take
    an order test before it can enter the table. If the test is failed, the
    vehicle is placed in reserve (and it cannot outflank, of course).”

     

    #184169
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    … and the same discussion under first edition, with none of the relevant wording changed between editions – includes a post from Alessio confirming one test.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/boltaction/permalink/468999153270030/

    #184171
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Thanks for the discussion that took place 6 years ago 😂 It would have been good if the latest FAQ had included the outcome of that discussion in its errata:

    A unit hit by a flamethrower must check its morale once firing has been worked out and pin markers allocated, as described above. Note that a morale check is required at the end of the shooting procedure regardless of the number of casualties caused and even if no damage has been suffered at all.

     

    It would have prevented essentially the same discussion from taking place again 6 years later. Otherwise strictly speaking conducting a morale check after pin allocation would still fulfill the 2nd part of the rules i.e. the morale check was done “regardless of number of casualties”.

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