July 17, 2020 at 3:56 pm #179996
I find the performance of the 25-pounder as listed in the rules disappointing. The weapon had two special designed shell types for AT use, and it had an incredible rate of fire for short bursts.
Right now it has the same stats as a 75 mm pack howitzer.
Any way to goose up the 25-pounder?0July 17, 2020 at 3:59 pm #179997LordRaoParticipant
It can also be fired as a Light AT gun. As always, state before firing (or going into Ambush) what shell you are using.
This is an excellent litte gun, and a near auto-include for many players of the British that I know.1+July 22, 2020 at 10:42 pm #180102JaesenParticipant
0August 1, 2020 at 4:31 pm #180310
- Remember also that you can’t indirect fire on ambush. So, as LordRao said, make sure to announce what type of ammo is loaded (AT vs HE) for your ambush as it’ll be for direct fire use only.
My point goes like this: As a weapon, the 25-pounder (89 mm) should have better stats, and be more like a 105 (40 pounder) than the 75 mm pack howitzer (10 pounder)0August 2, 2020 at 3:24 am #180311Kar98kParticipant
Is this because Rubicon Models will be releasing a British 25pdr soon? This new kit will be a great addition to anyone’s Bolt Action collection.
I have to agree with the others here in that the British 25pdr fits in nicely with the Bolt Action game system. I wouldn’t change anything about it. Just leave the British 25pdr as is because if you change/adjust the Bolt Action data for it then you will also have to change/adjust the data for some of the other field guns in the Bolt Action game system.0August 2, 2020 at 3:26 am #180312Stuart HarrisonParticipant
Your point doesn’t take into account the brackets that all weapons are required to fall into for this game. The 25 Pounder is in the light bracket for howitzers which rolls in anything from around 75mm up through 95mm howitzers – it’s actually in the middle of it’s bracket. 75s are at or near the bottom with anything smaller generally getting special rules that reduce their effectiveness (ie: Japanese 70mm uses the 1″ template rather than 2″).
The bracket that includes 105s goes all the way up through 5.5″ howitzers (Heavy howitzers only start at 150mm). Bolt Action simply isn’t granular enough in it’s weapons stats to reflect every instance of ‘weapon A was better than weapon B’.0August 2, 2020 at 1:46 pm #180315
First off, the 25 pounder was a field gun, not any sort of howitzer. It had a longer by proportion barrel and a muzzle velocity higher than any howitzer. It was intended to engage targets with direct as well as indirect fire. It was also designed for a high rate of fire, so the 25 pounder could throw 6 shells in a minute, where the 105 threw 3. Six times 25 pounds of shell is 150 pounds of steel on target. Three times 40 pounds of shell gives 120 pounds of steel on target. It was bad to be down-range of a 105. It was worse to be down range of a 25 pounder. (The 25 pounder had reached the end of its design capability. The 105 was considerably improved, even by Korea. In 1941, or even 1947, the 25-pounder was at least as fierce as a 105.)
Along with the higher muzzle velocity came its ability to engage targets with direct fire. Iron sights were built into the gun, making it a more effective AT gun than the 6 pounder. Bigger shell, more muzzle energy. The six pounder was much more nimble and easier to hide/deploy. The 6 pounder was also cheaper to make. The 6 pounder as a dedicated AT gun was the better option.
My agenda is simple. I need a gun that has some chance of engaging German Tigers and Soviet KV-Stalin class tanks. In real life, a 25 pounder did this. In Bolt action, it will not.
The 25 pounder hit as hard as a 105 with indirect fire and a tad harder than a 6 pounder in a direct fire role. As a “light howitzer,” its statistics do not come close to representing its effect in combat.
As a gamer, I’m not willing to shell out medium-to-big bucks for another piece of allied equipment that’s just a high value target for tigger. I wanted to build my army around a pair or even trio of 25 pounders, but as the stats look now, I’ll be getting 105s (and Tesla’s.)0August 3, 2020 at 10:28 am #180330arcoleParticipant
Don’t forget – Bolt Action is a game not a simulation. Warlord have simlified things a lot.
With agreement of your opponents, you could reclassify the gun as anything you want, but dont forget to adjust the points. Also, for a better HE you would need a much larger crew to feed the beast.1+August 4, 2020 at 6:54 pm #180409Jacob CarterParticipant
There would be a few problems if you uprate to a medium howitzer.
Cost is the first thing, it’d be roughly a 30 pt increase which would make it more expensive than a medium howitzer anyways. I don’t know what the 25 pounder costs to begin with, but I imagine it’s more than the standard light howitzer right?
Tactics are the next problem as you now have 3 separate ranges to keep track of for indirect, direct he(60”) and direct AT(48”) as the light AT gun stats would apply in this case. In addition there would be a 6” gap where you have better odds to hit with HE over AT, and AT wouldn’t even have better PEN until the target is 24” away. You’re basically paying more points for a tool you will never use. If you uprate the AT in addition then that’s just more pts you have to sink into the gun.
And you change what can even tow the gun, as jeeps couldn’t tow the gun anymore.0August 5, 2020 at 1:29 am #180422Stuart HarrisonParticipant
“First off, the 25 pounder was a field gun, not any sort of howitzer. It had a longer by proportion barrel and a muzzle velocity higher than any howitzer. It was intended to engage targets with direct as well as indirect fire. ”
We are discussing the rules of a game. I did not assert that the 25 pounder is a howitzer, simply that it has been placed in that category for the game.
“It was intended to engage targets with direct as well as indirect fire. ” – that is pretty much the definition of a howitzer for bolt action purposes.
As for the ‘not any sort of howitzer’, the 25 pounder was designed to replace both a gun and a howitzer in service (18 pounder field gun and 4.5″ howitzer) and had variable charge ammunition specifically so it could fill the howitzer role. It’s often described as a ‘gun-howitzer’ due to being a successful compromise between the two roles.
As Jacob says, for Bolt Action purposes, if you want to bump it up into a higher category you’re going to end up paying for it points wise. You’re also going to have other impacts based on that higher category, ie: what can tow it.0
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