Units on transport

[Nick]

This happened recently. A transport with a squad in was hit and destroyed by both a panzerfaust and flamethrower coming from same unit. Questions: Does the hit unit for wounds (after d6) get hit by the penetration of the weapons or just their morale level? Would the unit if technically hit by flamer also need a flamer  morale test ?

Thanks ahead of time

[Nat]

No the unit is NOT hit by the weapon that hits the transport vehicle… they are hit by sharpnel and debris of the vehicle.   THis is why you dont get PEN bonus to the wound rolls.  Source is the FAQ…FEB2020 FAQ page 14, has about 3 questions that are relavent – you can get the faq from the warlord store (free ) …edit – ok on double checking its not in the FAQ!   Sure I read it somewhere……

 

As they are not hit by the flamethrower but rather the vehicle they where inside they only test if they lose 50%

 

EDIT – also in case its asked latere –  you dont get multiple destroyed results.  You work out each damaging hit then if its destroyed any further ones are ignored.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Nat.

[Nick]

Since we use a fair amount of flamers I know this will come up. A flamethrower hits a transport but does not destroy or immobilize it , the transport passes the fire test would both transport and riders take same amount of pins. Also if it hits but doesn’t penetrate would pins also apply to both. The value of a flamethrower can really go up or down on the answer for us.

Nat so if a panzerfaust and flamer hits I get to chose which goes first and assign pins before panzerfaust.  It may seem pickey but answer would affect what might be targeted.

Thanks again

• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Nick.

[Master Chief]

Refer to 2nd edition page 116 (attached screenshot), the passengers should take the same number of pins.

For your 2nd question, we normally roll dice for each weapon type separately (one type after another) to determine which weapon hits/damages (although this might happen differently in reality where weapons are fired simultaneously). This is done as each weapon type may have different to-hit/damage rolls required, depending on range, modifiers etc. So in your example you could say roll for flamethrower first followed by panzerfaust. But you need to declare all targets first before rolling. You cannot wait for the outcome of the flamethrower attack to decide whether to fire the panzerfaust.

Hence if your flamethrower kills the unit, your panzerfaust would be considered “fired” and used up even though it is essentially firing at nothing.

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[Stuart Harrison]

“Hence if your flamethrower kills the unit, your panzerfaust would be considered “fired” and used up even though it is essentially firing at nothing.”

Point to consider with this – just because you have established that the transport is destroyed from the damage results of the flamethrower doesn’t mean the ‘faust is wasted.

The vehicle isn’t destroyed until all damage results from all hits have been applied (the remove casualties step of the shooting sequence of events).  Damage from the hits you haven’t rolled for yet don’t disappear just because you’re rolling them sequentially for convenience.

This doesn’t mean much for most vehicles (once you know it’s destroyed, there’s no reason to bother with the rest), but is important when the vehicle has passengers as many damage results apply an additional pin, which flows through to the passengers.

[Nat]

@nI know – good point I never said anything about order of resolution 😛

 

@stuart…except the part of the rules that literally says don’t apply anymore damage results and remove the vehicle as soon as you get a destroyed result!

 

 

• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Nat.

[Master Chief]

I thought that fire from the same unit at a single target, regardless of number of weapons used, will only cause 1 pin if hit. In this case one of the hits destroyed the transport, so the panzerfaust shouldn’t cause another pin right?

[Steeljackal]

Nick

Participant

This happened recently. A transport with a squad in was hit and destroyed by both a panzerfaust and flamethrower coming from same unit. Questions: Does the hit unit for wounds (after d6) get hit by the penetration of the weapons or just their morale level? Would the unit if technically hit by flamer also need a flamer  morale test ?

Thanks ahead of time

To be precise, it is not the morale level but the troop quality (which only before the pins is equal to the morale level). During game morale can go down and up, but troop quality is the same.

Nat

Participant

No the unit is NOT hit by the weapon that hits the transport vehicle… they are hit by sharpnel and debris of the vehicle.   THis is why you dont get PEN bonus to the wound rolls.  Source is the FAQ…FEB2020 FAQ page 14, has about 3 questions that are relavent – you can get the faq from the warlord store (free ) …edit – ok on double checking its not in the FAQ!   Sure I read it somewhere……

I thought like you, but I went to review the rulebook and the FAQ, and I can’t find any indications about it, and now I have a doubt.
The rulebook says “If a transport vehicle is destroyed, each unit onboard suffers D6 hits – roll this number of hits against each unit, apply damage and remove casualties as normal.”

Rulebook say “apply damage and remove casualties as normal”, as normal so with penetration modifier? 🤔

[Nick Participant]

This happened recently. A transport with a squad in was hit and destroyed by both a panzerfaust and flamethrower coming from same unit. Questions: Does the hit unit for wounds (after d6) get hit by the penetration of the weapons or just their morale level? Would the unit if technically hit by flamer also need a flamer  morale test ?

Thanks ahead of time

[Nat]

To be precise, it is not the morale level but the troop quality (which only before the pins is equal to the morale level). During game morale can go down and up, but troop quality is the same.

[Nat]

No the unit is NOT hit by the weapon that hits the transport vehicle… they are hit by sharpnel and debris of the vehicle.   THis is why you dont get PEN bonus to the wound rolls.  Source is the FAQ…FEB2020 FAQ page 14, has about 3 questions that are relavent – you can get the faq from the warlord store (free ) …edit – ok on double checking its not in the FAQ!   Sure I read it somewhere……

[Nat]

I thought like you, but I went to review the rulebook and the FAQ, and I can’t find any indications about it, and now I have a doubt.
The rulebook says “If a transport vehicle is destroyed, each unit onboard suffers D6 hits – roll this number of hits against each unit, apply damage and remove casualties as normal.”

Rulebook say “apply damage and remove casualties as normal”, as normal so with penetration modifier? 🤔

[Nat]

So we have in the instructions for massive damage this quote “(unless the vehicle is destroyed by the first result, of course)”

So if I get to apply 2 resutls unless its destroyed why would I be able to roll all D6 +1 flamerthower damage hits even if (for example) the first one destroys the vehicle?

 

Now my under standing is shooting V Vehicles goes something like this….

roll to hit

roll to wound

apply pin(s  for HE & flamethrowers)

1 at a time roll wounding hits on the damage table…. apply results (including destroyed) – this includes extra pins from stunned on the passengers (forced dismount on an imoblized restult*)

if not destroyed continue rolling wounds v damage table.

 

 

 

* HIJACK question – are passengers forced to dismount if the vehicles gets a fire result?  or do they stick around in the hope the fire goes out?

 

EDIT – @ Steeljacket – as normal would be the basic rule as PEN value is listed in the rules as a bonus …

• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Nat.

[Steeljackal]

On FAQ

“During preliminary bombardment, if an infantry unit is inside a transport at the start of the game,… …if they suffer an ‘incoming!’ result, is the one automatic hit resolved against the infantry unit riding or against the transport?
Do not roll separately from units that are onboard transports. Roll just for the transport unit, and if any pins are inflicted on the transport, then the same amount of pins are inflicted on all units on board. If the transport is hit and destroyed, the passengers are affected as normal.”

As normal, so with +3 pen value.

In my opinion rulebooks and FAQs do not say anywhere that it should be treated differently from the basic rule, and this specific case of preliminary bombardament seems to confirm it, therefore I believe that the value of pen should be taken into account.

[Nat]

But wouldnt ‘passenger affected as normal’ just mean that they follow the normal vehicle destroyed rules?  So back to the original issue of do you add PEN to wounds against troops in a destroyed vehicle?

 

– PS for what its worth… I’m not fussed either way, I play soviets…. 2 x zis 3s & and SU152 out ways 1 unit of infantry in a truck :p

 

• This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Nat.

[Steeljackal]

Nat

Participant

….

EDIT – @ Steeljacket – as normal would be the basic rule as PEN value is listed in the rules as a bonus …

I do not agree. The basic rule is always to apply penetration modifiers! It’s a basic rule, as the manual says at the beginning.

“IMPORTANT NOTE
The basic game rules are written with units of infantry in mind. This allows us to explain how the
rules work without overcomplicating matters with the numerous special rules that apply to tanks,
howitzers and suchlike. The rules for different types of artillery and vehicles are explained separately
in their own sections.”

“shooting” and “weapons” chapter is basic rules, and in “vehicles” chapter there are exceptions, changes to the basic rules, additional rules.

I thought like you before, but now I can’t find any place in the manual where it says to use different damage procedures, so it must be the same as the basic rule explained in the previous chapters

[Nat Participant]

….

EDIT – @ Steeljacket – as normal would be the basic rule as PEN value is listed in the rules as a bonus …

[Steeljackal]

Pen modifier is basic rules, infact is written when not apply. For example in close quarter combat chapter “ATTACKERS ROLL TO DAMAGE… Roll to inflict damage in the
same way as for shooting,… Note that no Pen modifiers apply in close quarters…”

[Master Chief]

‘If a transport vehicle is destroyed, each unit onboard suffers D6 hits – roll this number of hits against each unit, apply damage and remove casualties as normal.”

My view is Pen is included in determining damage. My logic is a transport blown up by an 88 Flak will do more damage to its passengers compared to one blown up by a 37mm AT gun.

If the transport is hit and destroyed, the passengers are affected as normal.

My view is the “as normal” refers to the normal way passengers are affected when a transport is destroyed i.e. take D6 hits and immediately disembark. It doesn’t say anything about adding Pen values, so it is just D6 hits.

HIJACK question – are passengers forced to dismount if the vehicles gets a fire result?  or do they stick around in the hope the fire goes out?

My view is no. They are forced to dismount only if the vehicle is immoblised or destroyed. So if the fire is not put out and the vehicle is destroyed, then the passengers must disembark.

[Stuart Harrison]

@Nat – “@stuart…except the part of the rules that literally says don’t apply anymore damage results and remove the vehicle as soon as you get a destroyed result!”

Where are you reading as saying that – I don’t recall it and I’m not spotting it.

Re hits on vehicle destruction and pen, the FAQ you’re all looking for is in regards to body armour under AoSU part of the FAQ:

“Does the body armour bonus apply against hits suffered in close
combat? And what about against hits from a destroyed transport the
engineers were riding in?
Yes to both, as most damage in close combat is caused by small
arms, and damage from burning transports does not have a Pen
value and thus counts as small arms fire.”

“HIJACK question – are passengers forced to dismount if the vehicles gets a fire result?  or do they stick around in the hope the fire goes out?”  There is no suggestions of passengers being forced to dismount by any result other than ‘knocked out’.

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