Snipers and vehicles

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  • #184019
    Steiner
    Participant

    Dear Comrades,

    Can snipers target individual crew in open-top vehicles?

    Thanks

    #184020
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Bolt Action 2nd Ed page 116:

    Units carried aboard a transport vehicle cannot be targeted directly by the enemy.

    Even more so for opened topped vehicles which are not considered to have “separate” crews.

     

    In any case I do not think there is a need for the sniper to target an open-topped vehicle’s crew. If the sniper hits an open-topped soft-skin (if there is one), the vehicle is destroyed because the sniper’s exceptional damage would mean it has rolled a 6+ for damage.

    If the sniper hits an armoured open-top vehicle, it can only pin it because small arms fire cannot damage an armoured vehicle.

     

    Bolt Action 2nd Ed page 106:

    Because armoured targets have a damage value of 7+ or greater it is impossible for them to be damaged by small-arms fire. Hits from small-arms fire are ignored, they cannot damage the vehicle and hits do not pin. Note that open-topped armoured targets are an exception to this general rule, as described on page 118.

     

    Bolt Action 2nd Ed page page 118, Open-topped 2nd paragraph:

    Open-topped armoured vehicles are pinned by hits from small-arms in the same way as soft-skins and infantry.

    #184021
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    “In any case I do not think there is a need for the sniper to target an open-topped vehicle’s crew. If the sniper hits an open-topped soft-skin (if there is one), the vehicle is destroyed because the sniper’s exceptional damage would mean it has rolled a 6+ for damage.”

    1.  Open topped only applies to armoured vehicles – first words in the rule “Some armoured vehicles are open topped…”, then goes on the use the term “open-topped armoured vehicles consistently throughout the rule.

    2.  Exceptional Damage doesn’t automatically change a hit into exceptional damage – you have to actually cause damage, then it either becomes exceptional by virtue of having rolled a 6 to score that damage and followed up with a second 6 (normal exceptional damage) or the unit that caused the damage is a sniper (automatic exceptional damage).

    3.  Exceptional damage means nothing vs a vehicle as all it does is let you choose which model is the casualty – vehicles are one model units, so that model is the casualty anyway.

    #184022
    Nat
    Participant

    Sorry @Master Cheif but the Exceptional damage rule doesnt come in to this as the sniper (unless its OstFront Ziestsev) needs a 6 to wound the softskin, as a small arms theres no bonuses to the wounding roll against a vehicle.  Once its ‘wounded’ you then roll on the vehicle damage chart.  There is nothing on that chart that allows for modifications of that chart due to snipers or Exceptional damage.

    @Stiener For the purpose of the game vehicles & their crew are a single entity and cant be separated (theres no rules for it!)

    #184023
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Yes that’s basically what I said but in a longer winded way 😂 A sniper hitting a soft-skin kills it (automatic exceptional damage of 6+), hitting an armoured open-topped just pins it (because its automatic exceptional damage only scores a 6+ and cannot damage armoured open-topped vehicles).

    #184024
    Nat
    Participant

    hmmm…..confused now! (doesnt take a lot some days :p)..I’m reading what you’ve written differently…. its reading to me like your saying if you roll a 6 to wound then that’s it the softskin is dead.

    But they are still a vehicle, so you still need to roll on the vehicle damage chart (4+ to kill it… so a sniper who hits then rolls the 6 to wound only has a 50/50 chance to kill the softskin – FAR better targets for the sniper to shoot at :p).

    #184025
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    “A sniper hitting a soft-skin kills it (automatic exceptional damage of 6+”

    This is still incorrect.  Hitting is not enough, you have to roll to damage, requiring a 6+ to damage a soft skin (p91, unit special rules, Sniper, fifth para – “If the sniper successfully rolls to wound and damage…” – my bold), then if your roll to damage is successful you have to roll on the damage results chart to see what happens, there is no mention of exceptional damage changing this.  Exceptional damage has no value against vehicles as there is only the one model – who chooses the casualty once damage has been scored doesn’t matter, there’s only one model to chose from.

    #184026
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Ah I see what you mean now. Yes you are right, we still need to roll on the vehicle damage chart 👍

    #184052
    Steiner
    Participant

    Wow, this is very confusing …

    So if a sniper fires on a soft target, for example a jeep …

    Let’s say you need a 3+ to hit it and you roll your die and get it. It is hit, so a pin marker.

    Then, you roll for damage … you need a 6+ for a soft target and you get it in the roll, but it is equal to the value so now you roll only for superficial damage a D6-3.

    Is it correct?

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 10 months ago by Steiner.
    #184054
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    One correction – Soft skin vehicles are specifically excluded from superficial damage, so even equaling the 6+ ‘to damage’ you get a normal unmodified roll on the damage results chart.

    #184061
    Steiner
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Excellent! Thanks a lot. It’s very clear now with soft targets.</p>
    And if instead of a jeep had been a armour open-top half track? With a roll of six in damage …. you don’t get anything? How can you pin it then?

    I can see it better with examples.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 10 months ago by Steiner.
    #184064
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    Open topped vehicles take a pin from any hit, even from small arms – no requirement to actually be able to damage.  That’s one of the major drawbacks of open topped armoured vehicles vs fully enclosed – even a guy with a pistol can cause them problems.  See p118, Vehicles, Vehicle Special Rules, Open-Topped, second para – “Open-Topped armoured vehicles are pinned by hits from small-arms in the same way as soft-skins and infantry.”

    #184074
    Nat
    Participant

    So a few examples to help Stiener out..

    example 1, small arms v softskin – roll to hit as normal, on hit apply 1 pin, roll to wound, on a 6 roll a D6 on the damage chart (no mods)

    example 2, HMG v soft skin – roll to hit, if 1+ hit apply 1 pin, roll as many hits to wound, each 5+* is a roll on the damage chart (no mods)

    *ie after apply the HMGs + 1 PEN modifier

    example 3, small arms v open topped armoured half track – roll to hit, if hit apply 1 pin to both vehicle & any /all units currently being transported

    example 4, HMG v open topped armoured half track – roll to hit, if 1+ hits apply 1 pin to both vehicle & any /all units currently being transported, for every hit roll to wound & on a 7+ (so a 6 + 1 PEN for being HMG + any mods applicable) is a roll on the damage table.  If you only managed a modified 7 then its D6-3, if (not really possible with a HMG) you managed a 10 or more then you roll 2 dice on the damage table

     

    #185201
    Steiner
    Participant

    Thanks a lot Nat and the others 🙂

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