Rules Question: Hitting squad behind hard cover.

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  • #189310
    Kodiak
    Participant

    Your M5 Stuart with 18 shots sees one man from a 10 man squad poking out from behind a stone building (or twin light MG on a British jeep etc, etc, etc). No one else is visible. He shoots from 6″ away and gets 18 hits (10hits, 3hits, 2hits) rolls and gets 10 kills (3 kills, 2 kills) and so wipes out an entire squad he cant see or possibly hit except for 1 man (or kills any number greater then 1). Is this correct??

    #189311
    Nat
    Participant

    yes…if you manage to roll that well!

    lets see… M5  at 6″ away… thats +1 for range -2 for hard cover (over half the squad is out of sight behind hard cover) so hitting on 4s… that’d be 9 hits on average… against inexp 6 kills, against regulars thats 4 or 5…. if 5 kills then thats a moral check for the remaining 5 and possibly wipe out!

    However – yes so long as part of the unit is viable target then casulties can be taken from anywere within the unit even if out of sight and range of the weapon(s) firing.  MRB, shooting chapter, target takes casulties – last sentance.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 3 weeks ago by Nat.
    #189313
    Greg
    Participant

    Yes, it’s possible though somewhat improbable.  If the vehicle didn’t move then the Basic To Hit Factor (THF) is 3, Point Blank modifier gives THF 2, Hard Cover Modifier gives THF 4.  If it had moved the THF would be 5 (no Stabilization for the MGs).  For a Regular level unit the To Kill Factor (TKF) is 4.  Your HMG has a penetration modifier to make the TKF 3.

    So you could have rolled 18 4s and gotten 10 4s to kill (if the Dice Gods were smiling on you).

    #189314
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Your M5 Stuart with 18 shots …

    Are you referring to the M3 Stuart?

    The errata gives it 1 hull-mounted MMG, + 1 coaxial MMG (2×5 shots), option to take 2x hull-mounted LMGs (2×4 shots)? I don’t think the M5 Stuart has these options 🤔

    #189315
    AndrewH
    Participant

    I believe this sentence from the rulebook under Dense Terrain addresses this: “If any of the enemy models are inside the dense terrain, then the target
    is visible, but counts as in cover, either soft or hard depending on the type of terrain”  The unit being shot at gets the -2 for hard cover and could get an additional -2 if they can go down. That could affect the number of hits significantly. Base to hit 3+, +1 point blank, -2 for down, -2 for hard cover = 6’s to hit. If they can’t go down, you would need 4+ to hit. The odds of rolling 18 sixes are astronomical and even with 4+ to hit, getting 18 hits would be amazing!  If you did roll that, you should play the lottery instead of Bolt Action! LOL.

    #189316
    Kodiak
    Participant

    I think you may be missing the point.  The question really is how can you hit and or kill anyone behind something you cant shoot through??  I dont care how many shots the Stuart has.  Say it is 10 shots from a rifle squad.  1 man is exposed, 9 men are behind cover (stone building in this example, in what universe can a .30 caliber rifle bullet kill more then the 1exposed man.  If this is really how the rule works what sense does that make?  So I take it when the squad fires they can all shoot at anything the one man can see.

    #189317
    AndrewH
    Participant

    Not missing the point, I understand what you are asking. It’s explained in the section Dense Terrain. Here’s the relative paragraph(s):

    “Unless the players agree otherwise, units are not allowed to draw line of sight over dense terrain, the dense terrain is always assumed to be higher than any models on the table blocking line of sight to all ground units.

    This means, for example, that if a firing unit is trying to draw line of sight to an enemy unit and all of the models in the enemy unit are behind a piece of dense terrain (and not in it) – so that the line of sight from all firing models to all target models is drawn through the dense terrain, then the target is considered impossible to see. If any of the enemy models are inside the dense terrain, then the target is visible, but counts as in cover, either soft or hard depending on the type of terrain (see the rules for cover)”

    I read that to mean that any models not behind the line-of-sight blocking dense terrain, exposes the entire unit, even a single figure. That’s what the rulebook states. If you want to make a house rule that says only figures that are in line-of-sight to the enemy are subject to being hit, that’s your call and you are free to do so.

    #189318
    Kodiak
    Participant

    I understand when they are in the terrain they can be seen and hit, that makes sense to me.  What I am talking about is when they are behind, completely out of hard cover but sheltering behind it, and all of the squad is impossible to see or hit except for 1 lone figure peaking out from behind a stone building for example how can the other 9 possibly be hit.

    #189319
    AndrewH
    Participant

    “…all of the models in the enemy unit are behind a piece of dense terrain (and not in it) – so that the line of sight from all firing models to all target models is drawn through the dense terrain, then the target is considered impossible to see. If any of the enemy models are inside the dense terrain, then the target is visible, but counts as in cover…”

    The key word is ANY. If any of the enemy models are in the dense terrain (or outside of it) the unit (NOT just the one model) can be targeted. In order to not be targeted ALL of the models of the unit must be behind the dense terrain.

    Maybe this paragraph under Taking Casualties can help you better understand their reasoning behind this rule:

    “Note that casualties can be taken from any models in the target unit, including models that are
    completely out of sight and out of range of the enemy weapons – think of it as a dynamic situation, where
    soldiers are moving around and bullets of course travel further than optimum range and often punch through
    or ricochet off cover.”

    Hope this helps!

    #189320
    Nat
    Participant

    @Kodiak

    The answer is simple – game balance (it stops you poking one guy out with say a rifle  to put a pin on a unit while keeping the rest untouchable.) and to help (as the rulebook says it the same paragraph) give the impression that everything /model is fluid and in motion…

    DOWN is the representation of infantrymen not moving and hiding not just being out of line of sight.

    Bolt Action is not a simulation and should never be approached like that… its a game of a hollywood style interpretation of ww2….

    #189322
    Kodiak
    Participant

    And that which could physically be done would be worse somehow than the fantasy 40K rule of being able to shoot through impenetrable objects??

    #189325
    Greg
    Participant

    It’s a “Beer and Pretzels” game, designed to be played in 2 or 3 hours so it simplifies many things.  Getting into the minutia of battle would give you a game that takes days to play and isn’t a whole lot of fun.

    #189327
    AndrewH
    Participant

    Kodiak,

    If the idea of models hiding behind hard cover being eligible targets is too hard a pill to swallow, then just make a house rule that they can’t be hit! Ultimately, it’s your game and how you play it is up to you. If the folks you game with don’t have a problem with tweaking the rules, then do it however you wish.

    #189328
    AndrewH
    Participant

    @Greg,

    I’ve played the simulation-based WWII rulesets before and you spend most of the time looking up results on tables and cross-referencing charts then, 5 minutes later you get a result. You’re right, it’s not a lot of fun because you spend most of your gaming time sitting there doing nothing (waiting for fire resolutions).  I’ve been trying to move away from those types of games… getting too old and impatient, I guess. LOL.

    #189330
    Greg
    Participant

    @Kodiak,

    My gaming buddies & I play in tournaments as we can, so we try to stick with the rules per the books & the Errata.  We found a while back that getting used to house rules would bite us on the behind at tourney.

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