Question about equiping Nid-late war US Marine NCOs with pistols

[DanS]

Just kind of a quick fiddly rules question regarding mid-late war USMC and pistols.

It says up to 3 men in a squad can have them. It would stand to reason that the NCO could be one of those men, but in cases of other weapon choices, such as an SMG, it actually specifies and makes the distinction when an NCO and men can have it, whereas pistols don’t make that distinction.

It’s really late and I’m super tired right now, so hopefully the question makes sense.

[Master Chief]

I believe the intention is to exclude the NCO, but the wording seems to allow equipping the NCO with a pistol. The same conundrum applies to other nations and other weapons as well e.g. up to 1 man can be equipped with an LMG for 20 points.

[Stuart Harrison]

I would say no, except as a house rule agreed with your opponent.

Options available to the NCO specifically mention the NCO, otherwise there is no point mentioning him in any of the “NCO + up to ‘x’ men may…” options, you could just write ‘x+1’ instead (ie: ‘up to 4 men’ rather than ‘NCO + up to 3 men’).

[Master Chief]

Yes I agree with Stuart and that’s how we have played it too. We have always (implicitly) thought “men” excluded the NCO, but started thinking after this was raised here. Consider the entry for US Regular Infantry Squad in the Armies of US book:

REGULAR INFANTRY SQUAD (LATE-WAR)
Cost: Regular Infantry 60pts.
Composition: 1 NCO and 5 men
Weapons: M1 Garand rifles
Options:

• Add up to 6 additional men with rifles for +10pts each
• The NCO can have a submachine gun instead of a rifle at a cost of +3pts
• Up to 2 men can have a BAR M1918A2 automatic rifle instead of a rifle for +5pts each
• The squad can be given anti-tank grenades for +2pts per man

 

In this case only the NCO can have a submachine gun, but could any 2 men (including the NCO?) have a BAR?

Personally I wouldn’t give the NCO the BAR as he is already a “high value” target, so I wouldn’t want to lose the BAR as well should he be killed. Plus historically I don’t think think the NCO carried the BAR.

Semantics … I can picture rules lawyers having a field day 😂

[invisible officer]

Officers and NCO should lead, not kill 😉

 

 

[Nat]

RAW hat on….

If the unit is made up of 1 NCO & 5 men, the BAR entry excludes the NCO as he is not part of the men entry as defined in the unit composition line.  However if you look at the Armies of the Soviet Union the upgrade options are written any soldier which is not defined so could be either the NCO or one of the men.  However the later books (looking at stalingrad) have the same wording as the US entry above and says men /man for some options.

Casing point is the Stalingrad panzergrenadier squad which states – NCO & upto 3 men may be armed with SMGs

RW / game sense – only the NCO can take the NCO options, squad weapons(eg LMGs, flamethrowers etc) should only be taken by ‘the men’,  SMGs can be taken by anyone.  Pistols, no point if the NCO has an SMG

 

Concluding statement – the older books suffer from fuzzy writting syndrom – or framework books to give you and your gaming buddys a starting point.   The later ones are tighter on the rules

• This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Nat.

[Nat]

Ok, reading the entry in question (us armies book pg 26).  It makes the distinction of NCO & Men in the composition line and in the options section .  For example it says NCO & up to 2 men can have SMGs, and upto 3 men can have BARs.

So the NCO can take a SMG but no other option,  the men part can change their rifle for either an SMG, shotgun or a BAR (as they all replace the standard rifle) AND can take a pistol in addition

[DanS]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

I agree that RAW, the NCO can’t take a pistol, but that seems really wierd. I’d imagine they’d be as likely to have one as any other guy would, so how does one go about submitting something for an errata?

[Nat]

To be honest there is no point to giving the NCO a pistol…the game idea of the pistols is to give assault rule to the guys without it so you get more tough fighters in combat….(up to 9 out of a full squad of 13)

The actual TOE I suspect is that the BAR gunners carried the pistol as a secondary weapon…

• This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Nat.

[Master Chief]

Haha you are assuming the player spends 3 points to give the NCO the SMG, which may not be the case if he could be given a pistol for +1 point instead.

But I do agree that NCO’s weapons are specifically mentioned, and all other mention of “men” exclude the NCO. That’s how we have been playing it.

[Master Chief]

This is in the latest FAQ for the Western Desert book:

Regarding Compagnia Sahariana. Squads are set at an NCO and 3 men. Up to 2 men may upgrade to SMG, Up to 2 men may upgrade to LMG. Is the NCO meant to be able to upgrade to an SMG? Also, if 2 LMGs are taken one will be automatically without a loader (unless the NCO can load)?

Answer: The NCO can have one of the two SMGs, and can act as the loader for an LMG.

See attached screenshot of the squad in question. Base on this, it would mean the wordings “Up to X men can have a YY for ZZ points each” would include the NCO.

Attachments:

1. 

   Sahariana.jpg
   

[Stuart Harrison]

Another FAQ response ignoring a clearly stated rule – p73, Weapons, Weapon Special Rules, Team Weapon, Squad Based Team Weapons, third sentence “Choose which model becomes the loader – you can pick any model in the squad except the NCO, …”.

Again the Western Desert author creates a discrepancy with the rules and it’s fudged in the FAQ rather than insert a correction in the unit entry via errata.

 

[Master Chief]

Yes, that is indeed a contradiction. The only “work around” for now is for the NCO and another man to be upgraded with the LMGs, so that the remaining 2 men become the loaders. But that would risk losing both NCO and LMG should the NCO be taken out by sniper fire. We have to wait for the next FAQ to resolve this.

[303in204]

Chief, re-read that response, NCO’s can either take an smg, or act as a loader for an lmg, no where does it state NCO’s can take an lmg.

I think trying to equate this faq response to mean any nco can take any weapon, or that nco’s are now counted amongst “men” is some pretty fallacious logic based on a misinterpretation of, yet another, lousy faq response that creates more problems than it solves.

Western desert is, from a rules perspective, probably the worst literature Warlord have produced, and the FAQ’s have shown they follow the same trend (the last three have broken more than they have fixed, and actual glaring issues are repeatedly ignored), I’m not sure why you would put any stock in this particular FAQ response, or consider it as precedent to modify the rest of the game.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by 303in204.
• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by 303in204.

[Master Chief]

Western Desert page 142 (which was included as a screenshot earlier):

Sahariana Infantry section
– Up to 2 men can replace their rifles with a submachine guns for +2pts
– 2 men may have light machine guns for +20pts each. For each LMG, another man becomes the loader.
– One man can be designated as the team medic for an additional +5pt

The reason the FAQ did not say the NCO could take an LMG is because it wasn’t asked. And I suspect the reason it wasn’t asked is because logically one wouldn’t have the NCO carry the LMG and risk losing both NCO and LMG should he be taken out by sniper fire.

The crux of this thread is whether when it mentions “Up to X men can have Y for Z points each”, does “men” include the NCO when it is not specifically mentioned?

Based on the answer to this FAQ, the NCO can be included as one of the 2 men who could replace their rifles with SMGs. Hence by extension to the next line of the Options entry, the NCO can also be included as one of the 2 men who may have an LMG for 20 points. And hence by extension to all squad options in all books, “men” would include the NCO wherever it is not specifically mentioned.

Whether the Western Desert book is well or badly written is beside the point. For me I go for consistency in application of published rules, errata and FAQs. So we shall see whether the next FAQ will amend this part, together with the inconsistency that the NCO can become a loader when it is stated in the 2nd Ed rules that he couldn’t.

Of course we could also choose to ignore the FAQs (and any other Warlord book) entirely, and just play with the army lists in the 2nd Ed rulebook for fun. As it is now, I have yet to get around to printing out the FAQ, cutting out the individual sections and sticking them on the relevant pages of the respective books to save the constant flipping to check the FAQs.

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