Hidden Units Detection

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  • #183643
    Robert Jones
    Participant

    The rule says that as Infantry unit must move to (or be placed ) within 12 inches of a hidden unit to reveal them.  Infantry in a transport, that is not manning a transport weapon, moves to within 9 inches of a hidden unit by virtue of being in a transport that used their order to carry the infantry unit to that location.  Without disembarking, does the Infantry unit reveal the hidden unit?

    If you read the rule the infantry unit is now within 9 inches of the hidden unit and should reveal the hidden unit.  However, some are saying they are not in the transport at all.  They are still off board. Where is the Bolt Action opinion on this. All I can find is other players using their own logic to justify their opinion.   Has Bolt Action explained this?  It would be very simple to add a line that says, “Infantry inside transport do not count as infantry, and must use the parameters of the transport vehicle, until they leave the vehicle.”   Can anyone clear this up for me?

    Thanks

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    #183644
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Bolt Action 2nd Ed page 116:

    TRANSPORTS AND ORDERS
    Transports and any unit they carry are, of course, two separate units and must be given two separate orders.

     

    Page 131:

    Hidden units remain hidden until one of the following happens:
    • The hidden unit is ordered to Fire, Advance or Run.
    • An enemy unit scores a hit on the hidden unit (other than preparatory bombardment).
    An enemy infantry or artillery unit moves to (or is set up) within 12”.
    • An enemy recce vehicle moves to (or is set up) within 12”.
    • Any other enemy vehicle moves to within 6”.

    The hidden unit rule (page 131) does not specify how the infantry moves to within 12in i.e. on foot, horses, bikes, motorbikes or on transport. The transported unit is also considered a separate unit in the transport and not off board (page 116), so I would say the infantry unit on the transport will reveal hidden units when it moves within 12 inches of that hidden unit.

     

    Where is the Bolt Action opinion on this. All I can find is other players using their own logic to justify their opinion.

    This happens all the time. 😆

     

    It would be very simple to add a line that says, “Infantry inside transport do not count as infantry, and must use the parameters of the transport vehicle, until they leave the vehicle.”

    Indeed, let’s hope this sentence (or one that says the opposite) appears in the next FAQ.

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    #183648
    Robert Jones
    Participant

    Thank you for your response. I see a lot of complaints about the rules so I do not think this is the first anomaly.  Again, thanks for your input.

     

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    #183671
    Kar98k
    Participant

    If rule books had every little detail and situational rule, well, 1) these books would be big, and 2) it is impossible to think of every little detail possible and/or tabletop situation. Sometimes players just need to use common sense when playing any tabletop miniature game and not just Bolt Action.

    That being said, the rules do not specifically say the infantry unit must not be in a transport to reveal hidden units at 12″. If the infantry unit is being transported by truck or half-track, wouldn’t it just make sense that their ability to spot hidden units would be greatly reduced? Maybe to something like 6″, which just so happens to be the same distance the vehicle spots the hidden unit.

    I’m pretty sure the intention of the rule (hidden until within 12″) is for deployed infantry and artillery units and not those being transported.

    +2
    #183675
    Nat
    Participant

    My take on the situation is: Tiger Fear has an exception in the FAQ that means it effects units embarked on a transport.  Hidden Units are not stated to be affected by units on a transport, and transported units are mentioned not to be able to interact with units not on the transport (see officers Snap-to).  So unless those infantrymen disembark they are not going to reveal the hidden unit….they’re too busy holding on and cursing the driver whilst being bounced around on the back of a vehicle to spot hidden troops*

    *I speak from experiance on the bouncing around bit …~15 mph in the back of a land rover on an exercise area – bounced off the roof and my glasses went flying! out of the back 🙁

     

    +2
    #183680
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Hidden Units are not stated to be affected by units on a transport, and transported units are mentioned not to be able to interact with units not on the transport (see officers Snap-to).

    By the same argument, hidden units are also not stated to be unaffected by units in transport. And only transported HQ units are unable to use their “special” abilities on units not in the transport. Units in the transport can even fire additional weapons on a transport.

    For me I would play to what the rules specifically allow or disallow, not what I thought was right or wrong. Otherwise players would need to agree on house rules on quite a few “issues” before each game.

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    #183681
    Nat
    Participant

    However the rule do state that they are not on the table… so if they are not on the table how do you measure the distance from them to the hidden unit?  As to firing additional weapons on the transport, thats the transports weapons just using the skill and PINs of the transported unit so you know to measure (from the vehicle).

    BUT as you say its not clearly stated either way*…. and if it came up in a game (as stated) my initial comment would be no they cant, if they said yes I’d either dice off or call a TO (tournament game)

    Final point – would you say the game is a permissible rule set not restrictive?  That is if the rules dont say you can, then the default should be you cant.

     

    *Although as others have said if the transport gets to 6″ its a mute point anyway :p

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 4 days ago by Nat.
    +1
    #183683
    Master Chief
    Participant

    However the rule do state that they are not on the table… so if they are not on the table how do you measure the distance from them to the hidden unit?

    Yes they are off the table but “in the transport”, so we can measure from the vehicle. That’s also why they can fire the transport’s additional weapons i.e. the passengers are not “off board”.

     

    BUT as you say its not clearly stated either way*…. and if it came up in a game (as stated) my initial comment would be no they cant, if they said yes I’d either dice off or call a TO (tournament game)

    Yes, for casual games if players cannot agree, just dice off. For tournament games, it will depend on how the “referee” rules.

    Final point – would you say the game is a permissible rule set not restrictive?  That is if the rules dont say you can, then the default should be you cant

    Haha guilty until proven innocent, or innocent until proven guilty? The rules themselves are a combination of “permissible” (e.g. transported officers are allowed to use their morale bonus with the transport and other transported units) and “restrictive” (e.g. HQ units cannot use special abilities while inside a transport). Hence I play such that a “move” not specifically disallowed is allowed. To be honest in my many games played, I have never had an opponent loading infantry on a transport to reveal hidden units. In fact the “hidden” rule itself is far from perfect, so we seldom use that.

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    #183699
    Greg S
    Participant

    If you are using a lorry full of troops to scout a hidden bazooka team, you are in for a lot of pain when the next dice is his.

    If the enemy is a dangerous one, approach cautiously with cover.  Don’t park your Opel next to him.

    +3
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