Are Rifle Grenades a small arm or heavy weapon?

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  • #183285
    Nat
    Participant

    I’ve asked this question on a FB group as well.. in purely rules terms is the rifle grenade adaptor classified as a small arm or a heavy weapon?

    This effects if it can hurt armoured vehicles and do exceptional damage on artillery.

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    #183287
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Bolt Action 2nd Ed:

    PINNED (page 39, Pin markers, 2nd paragraph)

    In the case of some particularly heavy weapons two or more pin markers can sometimes be scored against a target in one go.

    ROLL TO DAMAGE (page 56)

    Heavy weapons add a modifier to the damage roll, allowing for a score of greater than 6.

    Since the rifle grenade adaptor fires as a light mortar with Pen +1 (possible damage score of greater than 6) causing D2 pins (2 or more pins), it is a heavy weapon.

     

    Finally the weapons chart on page 62 lists the light mortar under the heavy weapons section 🙂

    +1
    #183288
    Nat
    Participant

    Devils advocate here (because I’m not to bothered either way, and I’m begining to  agree it looks like the RGA should be classified as a heavy weapon… )

     

    re pins – the number of PINs a RGA generates are by the HE rule, so there is nothing to stop a small arms weapon giving multiple PINs

    re page 56, that says all heavy weapons have a PEN mod, not that only heavy weapons can have a PEN mod, also again the RGA doesn have a PEN value, its the HE template that does

    re light mortar – thats not a rifle grenade adaptor,  the rules in both the marianas & stalingrad campaign books dont say use light mortar rules they give a separte stat line (with shorter range)

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    #183291
    Master Chief
    Participant

    re pins – the number of PINs a RGA generates are by the HE rule, so there is nothing to stop a small arms weapon giving multiple PINs

    Small arms fire is unable to generate multiple pins with a single shot.

    re page 56, that says all heavy weapons have a PEN mod, not that only heavy weapons can have a PEN mod, also again the RGA doesn have a PEN value, its the HE template that does

    No, it says heavy weapons can generate a damage score higher than 6, and small arms weapons cannot. So the RGA is definitely not a small arms weapon. The point that “it is the template that does (have the Pen)” does not hold, because that is the same with all HE weapons (see the Pen column for HE weapons in the weapons chart on page 62), which would mean all HE weapons are not heavy weapons?

    re light mortar – thats not a rifle grenade adaptor,  the rules in both the marianas & stalingrad campaign books dont say use light mortar rules they give a separte stat line (with shorter range)

    That is true, I was looking at the older VB Launcher write-up in the Armies of France and Allies book which stated it fires as a light mortar. The rifle grenade adaptor  stats in the Battle of the Bulge book is the same but does not mention the “light mortar”, so we can ignore the “light mortar” bit. The “damage greater than 6” and “2 or more pins” should suffice to prove that the RGA is considered a heavy weapon under Bolt Action rules.

    +1
    #183296
    Nat
    Participant

    it doesnt state that small arms cant generate more than 1 pin or have a PEN value, the rule book only states that heavy weapons do and so implies that small arms cant..

    However there is more in favour of them being a heavy weapon than not*… so I’m going to leave it here and wait to see if an offical answer is ever made :p.. and be very suprised if its not a ‘of course they’re heavy weapons you nit’ :p

     

    *in favour is the 1″ HE template and associated PEN value, & D2 Pins.  + the ability to fire smoke + has the indirect rule

    against is that it doesnt remove the users rifle, its not a team or one shot weapon…..

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    #183302
    Master Chief
    Participant

    it doesnt state that small arms cant generate more than 1 pin or have a PEN value, the rule book only states that heavy weapons do and so implies that small arms cant..

    Pin markers (Page 39)

    Every time a unit is fired at by an enemy unit and suffers one or more hits as a result, place a single pin marker next to it.

    Small arms weapons follow this rule and hence cannot generate more than  1 pin. While some heavy weapons may generate only 1 pin (e.g. the HMG and shaped charged weapons), any weapon that generates 2 or more pins is a heavy weapon (refer to weapons chart on page 62). And as explained, heavy weapons can generate damage scores higher than 6. No small arms weapon can, and this is not inferred.

    *in favour is the 1″ HE template and associated PEN value, & D2 Pins.  + the ability to fire smoke + has the indirect rule

    I don’t think the “fire smoke” and “indirect rule” come into this discussion as they are not specified as criteria for heavy weapons.

    against is that it doesnt remove the users rifle, its not a team or one shot weapon…..

    While the rifle is still used to fire the grenade, the single grenade now causes more damage through its explosion compared to a single bullet, hence it is not small arms weapon. I don’t think the team or one-shot comes into the discussion. For example the mmg team is a team weapon but it is definitely not a heavy weapon. And team or one-shot are not specified as criteria to qualify as heavy weapons.

    +2
    #183327
    Master Chief
    Participant

    I just saw this in Bolt Action 2nd Ed page 57:

    TROOPS, SOFT-SKINNED AND ARMOURED TARGETS (last paragraph)

    Small-arms and light automatic weapons such as rifles, submachine guns and light or medium machine guns don’t add a bonus to damage. This means it is impossible to score more than 6 when rolling to damage using these weapons.

    I think this confirms the RGA is a heavy weapon and not small arms.

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    #183346
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    Reading rules, it does not matter if it is fired from a light weapon (and to be precise it is not a light weapon, but a special light weapon, beacuse it is a rifle with RIFLE GRENADE ADAPTOR attached) but the weapon used and its rule is the rifle grenade (see battle for france or battle of the bulge), which is a heavy weapon. Like the hand grenade in skirmish, it doesn’t matter if it is hand thrown but the weapon is a hand grenade which is a heavy weapon. They are HE heavy weapons.

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    #183349
    Nat
    Participant

    I dont have battle for france or battle of the bulge.. the 2 campaign books I have dont classify RGA as either a small arms weapon are OR Heavy weapon…

    So do you follow that its a small arm, or because it has a HE template its a Heavy weapon OR do you have to have all the western books to get rules for a Japanese army?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Nat.
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    #183352
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    For me is simple.
    From rulebook “Heavy weapons add a modifier to the damage roll”. Rifle grenade has HE 1″ rule, then has +1 pen, then is heavy weapon.

    +1
    #183353
    Master Chief
    Participant

    … OR do you have to have all the western books to get rules for a Japanese army?

    All 4 books give the same stats and points for RGAs. They just have different descriptive write-ups and allowed numbers for different nationalities.

    – The Armies of France & Allies (not Battle of France) book referred specifically to the VB Launcher for French troops (and says it fires as a light mortar).

    – The Battle of the Bulge book gave the allowed RGA numbers per squad for US/Free French (0-3), British (0-1) and Germans (0-2).

    – The Stalingrad book has the allowed RGA number for German squads (0-2), same as that given in the Bulge book

    – The Mariana book has the allowed RGA number for Japanese squads (0-1)

    But the stats are exactly the same in all 4 books … range 6-18″, 1 shot, Indirect Fire and HE(1).

    +1
    #183354
    invisible officer
    Participant

    The Rifle Grenade is fired by a small arm but can hardly be classed as a typical  small arm amo.   Explosive load in HE was normally much less than in a Hand grenade but enough to produce a lot of splinters.

    And there also existed hollow charge rounds. Intended against armored vehicles.

     

    So historically a rifle grenade could hurt armored vehicles.    Best German one 120 mm armor.

    German AT Rifle Grenades made42-45 more than 20.000.000, hard to ignore. 😉  HE add. 35.000 000

     

    The rules, like in Stalingrad p. 133 , do ignore that AT role. It’s a classic: Talk with the other guys before starting the game.

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    #183356
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    I don’t understand where is the problem. Rifle grenade has HE 1″, then use HE rules:
    – +1 PEN;
    – d2 pins;
    – can damage armored vehicle 7+;
    – can make exceptional damage on artillery;
    – medic doctor cannot cure HE wounds

    HE (from mortar, artyllery, hand grenade, grenade launcher,…) is heavy weapon.
    All rules say this, and there is nowhere in the rules an exception to all this.

    +2
    #183364
    Master Chief
    Participant

    Yes based on the current rules the rifle grenade adaptor is a heavy weapon. I guess some players would like to see the following added (just to make it absolutely clear) in the next Bolt Action errata:

    All rifle grenade adaptors/VB launcher entries in all books. Add the following line:

    The rifle grenade adaptor/VB Launcher is considered a heavy weapon.

     

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    #183404
    Steeljackal
    Participant

    Rules are not clear in many parts, I agree with you.

    But in this case there is no problem, HE1″ means pen +1 then can damage and pin armoured vehicle, and all other things HE (and a heavy weapon) do.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Steeljackal.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Steeljackal.
    +1
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