[Zloy Krolik]

I know this comes over as a bit sharp, but the problem is I like the game, it’s just bugged to hell. If you just shrug and excuse that then there is no incentive to improve. Just sitting here and accepting the shoddy quality is doing noone any good, nor is defending it.

I agree with this. My main problem with Cruel Seas is that the rules didn’t live up to the usual high standards I’ve come to expect from Warlord Games. I could come up with house rules to “fix” the problems in Cruel Seas, but why should I when I spent money to purchase a set of rules that should’ve had these “fixes” already in them.

I’m afraid I will not be playing Cruel Seas as a set of rules. There are other rules that cover the same period & topic without the frustrating holes that Cruel Seas have. The sad thing is that Cruel Seas could’ve been a much better game, there are some good & interesting mechanics in these rules, but the execution of them is flawed.

That said, I will be buying more ships from Warlord, they are very nicely done, I just won’t be playing Cruel Seas with them

[Zloy Krolik]

>It is not easier to hit an Eboat at 14 knots than a huge ship at 12. The rule, as written in the book (not the errata) is that you suffer a -2 to hit if the target vessel is going at over 24cm. There is a +1 to hit if the vessel is moving at slow speed and +2 to hit if it is stationary.

The E-boat is moving at slow speed (14 knots) and has a +1 to hit modifier. The tanker is moving at fast speed (12 knots) and doesn’t have that modifier. Thus the E-boat is easier to hit. Silly rule.

Also the tanker can make 3 turns during its move while the E-boat can only make 1 turn. Slower ships moving at the same actual speed are more maneuverable.
Silly rule 2.

[Zloy Krolik]

>Far from Warlord Games finest hour. I’m glad I didn’t buy one of the hardback “delux” sets. I’d be fuming

At least you got an autograph with that.

[Zloy Krolik]

Just call it whatever you want. Just because the rules say the models are WYSIWYG doesn’t mean you have to play that way. Plenty enough problems with these rules, even after the errata, don’t make more by overly rivet counting the models.

[Zloy Krolik]

There is a small pipe just behind the aft gun mount on the starboard side of the housing.

[Zloy Krolik]

Then why does a ship with a Full speed of 12 cm turn 180 degrees in a tighter arc than a ship with a Slow speed of 12 cm? Play it out with some models and you’ll see this is true. They are both moving at the same speed, 12 cm.

[Zloy Krolik]

Thanks for the errata. I appreciate the effort to correct mistakes in the rules.

[Zloy Krolik]

Thanks mate, I will.

Any thoughts on informing this forum with some of the design decisions that went into this game? I’d be interested in hearing them.

[Zloy Krolik]

>Turning circle at full speed was smaller than the German boat’s one but surprise: At slow speed the German one had a lot smaller despite being much longer.

This illustrates my point exactly, the turning circle changes with speed. I understand the compromise between playability & realism/complexity. But in Cruel Seas, boats have the same turning circle regardless of speed.

Case in point, to change course by 180 degrees a boat moving at Full speed will do it in 1 1/3 game turns, a boat at Combat speed will do it in 2 game turns, and a boat at Slow speed will do it in 4 game turns. And all of them will have the exact same track.

I think the RAW work fine for boats at Combat and Full speed, but boats are move maneuverable at Slow speed than the rules would allow. The rules for turning ships with a 30 degree turn are fine.

[Zloy Krolik]

I don’t have issues with the turning rules at Combat & Full speed, I think they’re a good compromise between playability and realism/complexity. You have to make those design decisions when developing the game. If a vessel uses the 30 degree turning marker, the RAW are fine.

I just think that at Slow speed the boats (not ships) would be move maneuverable than in the game. It appears that those with actual naval experience would agree. I did ask a friend with considerable naval knowledge about this as well.

I happen to live in Portland, Oregon, USA. Home of the restored PT658 & have seen it motoring about the Willamette River. Those Packard engines sound terrific! The PT boat was quite maneuverable at slow speeds. While this kind of personal observation isn’t exact data, it does confirm what I’ve been told.

http://www.savetheptboatinc.com/

As to poor proofreading, I get that those with familiarity with the rules can overlook things, that is why you have someone not involved with the project do the proofreading. But missing charts and wrong numbers are other examples of the poor job in proofreading. The rules are barely a month old and we already have errata, for which I am thankful.

[Zloy Krolik]

Thank you for the errata. I have a question about the Mine Table.

Shouldn’t the modifiers for Veteran & Inexperienced crews be reversed?

Or change the modifiers to effect the To Hit number?

[Zloy Krolik]

I think the rules about boat acceleration are fine, a simple way to show that boats can’t start & stop instantly, the problem is that you MUST move your full distance. No more, no less for each speed band you are going. If you are moving slow, you should be able to move UP TO 1/3 of your full speed. Furthermore, boats can turn in a tighter arc at slower speed. There would be times boats would move at less than full speed in combat to increase their maneuverability, but the rules don’t allow that.

But my main gripe is the poor proofreading done on Cruel Seas. Major rules are ambiguous and other rules have charts missing or other problems. It seems if these rules were rushed to print.

I’ve come to expect better than this from Warlord Games Rules. I like Bolt Action and find them to be a very good set of rules for the period and scope of battle that they cover.

I am very pleased with the models, they are nicely detailed and look good on the table, too bad the rules weren’t as well laid out as the models.

[Zloy Krolik]

I know, it is another example of the poor proof reading in these rules. I feel sorry for the folks who paid for the hard bound version of these rules. To spend that much money for a sub par set, when with a bit of work they could have been much better. I like Bolt Action, and those rules are well put together, they do have a few small errors, but nothing like Cruel Seas.

[Zloy Krolik]

Yet another example of the poor proof reading in these rules.

I asked about the missing mine chart, still haven’t gotten an answer to that.

[Zloy Krolik]

I get that ships have “advance”, the forward movement before they answer the rudder, but these are boats, under 150 tons, they respond much quicker than ships, they will have a smaller turning radius when moving slower, they can speed up and decelerate quicker than ships. In plain fact, they are more maneuverable than ships. Why all the restrictions on them? With the way the rules are written, you can not travel in formation with different kinds of vessels if they have different speeds. How unreal is that?

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