The Army Book listing for the SD.KFZ 251/9 STUMMEL – it must be a mistake.

[Kar98k]

Question: That has to be an error on page 74 in the “Armies of Germany: Third Edition” book for the SD.KFZ 251/9 STUMMEL. It says it can transport up to 8 men. Really?!

This has to be a typo, cut and paste error, or some other mistake/oversight, yes? Historically speaking, it did not carry soldiers (it was not used as a transport) because the 7.5cm KwK L/24 gun with its gun mount, its load of 52 rounds of ammunition, gun crew positions, plus equipment and radio (towards the back) left no physical space for passengers inside the actual vehicle. Even looking at Warlord Games’ model kit of the SdKfz 251/9 Stummel (SKU#402012005, plastic) you can clearly see there is absolutely no room to “Transport: Up to 8 men”. Also, according to German doctrine and many good sources (including Panzer Tracts 15-3 by Thomas Jentz and Hilary Doyle), the Stummel was only used for close support and not designed to carry passengers.

I have checked the current Errata and FAQ, and there is no errata for this. Has no one spotted this (what seems to be an obvious) mistake yet? Also, it is listed under the “Self-Propelled Artillery” category, and not under the “Transport and Tows” category.

Do gaming groups use a house rule (to fix the mistake) that say the 251/9 cannot carry passengers? At least until an official errata fixes it.

[Stuart Harrison]

It’s been the same since first edtion, and rather than correct it when it was pointed out, they wrote it into the rules to enable it –

First Edition Errata – “Page 92-93: Role of Transports.
The following paragraph will be added at the end of the rule:
If a vehicle has a transport/tow capacity, but it is not included in the Transport and Tows section of the force list (e.g. it’s in the Self-Propelled artillery section), both of the rules above do not apply to it. In other words: it is NOT destroyed by being in proximity of enemies and it CAN fire its weapons even without passengers. The rules for mounting/dismounting and transporting troops apply as normal..

Second Edition, that errata was written into ‘Role of Transports’, p114, and in Third Edition it got it’s own sub-heading, Combat Vehicles with a Transport Capacity, p146.

[Kar98k]

But the simple fact remains. The SdKfz 251/9 Stummel was only used for close support and not designed to carry passengers.

[Stuart Harrison]

I’m not arguing with you on that.  The facts are a sound basis for a house rule.

The authors cementing it in the rules (specifically enabling it to function as a vehicle with transport capacity in an SP gun slot) rather than simply correcting it in first edition means you’re unlikely to get an official change.

[Kepler]

Regardless of historical accuracy, this is very clearly an intentional decision, as the rulebook entry for the 251/9 is exactly the same as the 250/8 on the preceding page, save for the addition of transport capacity. As for the model itself, the only reason we couldn’t fit 8 men inside would be the discrepancy between infantry and vehicle scale in Bolt Action. It does come with bench seats, and I was able to assemble it with the four passenger models it came with plus the loader standing in the aisle. Considering the oversized infantry and the fact that their footprint is widened because of their hard poses, the model could fit 8 passengers just as well as the stock Hanomags would be able to carry 12. I’m sure you’re right that the ammo, radio, etc. would have made it unfeasible for passengers, but I’d venture to guess Warlord decided to allow transport because they made the model, and then thought ‘Hey, it looks like we could fit some people in there!’; or else because there’s no in-game distinction between the 250/8 and 251/9.

[Jim Ripley]

Looking at internal pictures of the 251/9 I would say they could cram 6 – 7 guys to the rear of the gun . The crew of the /9 would be  3-4 ( driver , gunner . loader /commander ) , and they could stand either side of the gun mount . It’s pretty tight in there and I don’t think you would be able to have too much personal gear on because of the space taken up by the crews gear . BUT if you had to retreat somewhere fast , you would make do , riding on the hood if you had to.  But calling it a transport is really pushing it IMO . But then who said that the Bolt Action rules & stats all make sense in the real world

[Kar98k]

“It does come with bench seats, and I was able to assemble it with the four passenger models it came with plus the loader standing in the aisle.” “…the model could fit 8 passengers just as well as the stock Hanomags would be able to carry 12.”

Interesting, and I have to ask. What model do you have? My model (see pic below) can just fit the crew, and there are no bench seats for passengers. Anyway, using the above reasoning, I guess the SD.KFZ 251 STUKA ZU FUSS (AoG3E, page 76) needs to have the “Transport: Up to 12 men” added to its stats.

That tubular steel framework, which held the six launching troughs, was designed to be easily fitted and removed from a standard 251 half-track. Even with the framework fitted, the bench seats remain with room to “Transport: Up to 12 men” just like a normal 251/1. I’m just saying, if the 251/9 can carry up to 8, why can’t the 251 Stuka carry up to 12?

But Kepler is correct, without that transport tag, the 251/9 and the 250/8 (Stummels) are both the same thing in Bolt Action, so could have been grouped together as one listing – two different vehicles with the same stats. After all, both vehicles were used for the same purpose.

• This reply was modified 3 days, 15 hours ago by Kar98k.

[Jim Ripley]

Here’s a picture of a C chassis . 1. Driver .  2. Gunner   3. Loader   4. Commander   X. 3-4 guys crammed in .  Y. 2-3 guys on top of ammo storage . Not really something you would want to be in advancing under fire , plus the gun couldn’t fire . If you had to bug out PDQ , uncomfy but your haulin ass out of trouble

 

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[Kepler]

I believe they only have the one kit, but with multiple assembly options. I built mine with the bench seats to emphasize its role as a transport vehicle in my army list (which I’ve since removed, since they nerfed it in the errata), but the vehicle can be built with space for them.

I’d like to reiterate I’m not arguing with you about the correct historical usage of the vehicle. That said, when you bring up the Stuka Zu Fuss, it’s worth noting that they would never add transport capacity to that vehicle, since it would serve no tabletop purpose. Neither vehicle would historically have been intended to operate as close as Bolt Action vehicles get, but the rules make it worthless to bring rocket artillery up close, whereas driving your howitzer up the middle of the field and firing point blank while troops unload can be a valid tactic. (Side note, if you’ve researched this, wouldn’t the benches actually have been removed from the Stuka Zu Fuss to make space for more rockets?)

At the end of the day, it’s a game first and foremost. The game has many concessions where gameplay design intentionally supersedes historical accuracy, and this is one of them. It would have been more accurate as you said to make the 250/8 and 251/9 a single entry, but Warlord must have felt it was beneficial to have a transport with a light howitzer on it, so they allowed for it. And since they have specifically addressed these vehicles in the errata for other reasons, they’ve clearly looked at the rules and decided they were as intended.

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[Jim Ripley]

It has always been obvious to me that the Warlord guys who think up the rule sets , are gamer / painters  1st and foremost and probably have no real interest in real life WW2 vehicles . Some of the weird stuff they put in the rules just makes me shake my head . It’s supposed to be just a game though …. .

The rear benches were really just padded covers for a floor mounted storage bin . The ones in front being about a foot longer than the rear pair . There was a open top  stowage bin behind each seat back and the wall . Note , there was specific plan on what  equipment ( ammo boxes , spare mg barrels , etc ) went where, depending on the sub version of the 251 . You would have different stuff if it was a plain jane  troop carrier or say an 251/7 engineer vehicle with 1600 pounds of mines and compressors / generator taking up the re rear bench seat area ( crew of 8 ) . The Stuka Zu Fuss pictures I have show the rockets stacked inside in their wooden firing crates a stack of 6 ( 2 rows of 3 ) across the front pair of benches . There is enough room for the commander to stand between them and the cab roof . In the rear sit 4 guys on the rear  benches . So that would give the vehicle 2 salvos ( 1 on the frame & 1 reload inside ) .

A little of topic , sorry … any way I tend to lean to the real life side of things in WW2 gaming so ,  these vehicles are not transport. You and your gaming buds can do what you like .   I’ve been building Warlord plastic tanks since the 1st T-34/85 came out and still haven’t played a game

[Kar98k]

I built mine with the bench seats to emphasize its role as a transport vehicle in my army list (which I’ve since removed, since they nerfed it in the errata), but the vehicle can be built with space for them.

@Kepler: Please elaborate. Why you think they nerfed it in the errata? For the newest errata, it only says to change this:

PAGE 74. Sd.kfz 250/8 Stummel & 251/9 Stummelhalf-track
REPLACE the second option (adding a pintle-mounted forwardfacing MMG) with the following:
– May add a co-axial MMG to the howitzer for +5pts.

Which of course makes sense since it wasn’t a pintle-mount in the first place.

[Kepler]

Sorry, that was entirely a tangent. It is, of course, completely correct to note that the forward facing machine gun should be coaxial rather than pintle-mounted, but this is nevertheless a huge nerf to the capability of the vehicle. Being able to shoot both the howitzer and a forward machine gun in the same turn made it very strong for its cost, which is the main reason I’d purchased one. I mostly only bring that up to explain why I have it assembled but unpainted.

Jim, thank you for the insight there. Interesting to note that the 251/7, in game, also retains its 12-man transport capacity. So I guess, by and large, transport capacity is probably defined by someone at Warlord eyeballing the vehicle and saying ‘eh, looks like we could squeeze 8 guys in there’. That said, I can’t imagine this ever changes, mostly because (which I assume is what brought up the question in the first place) the recently released ‘Cross of Iron’ starter set comes with the 251/9, likely intended for the primary purpose of providing transport capability. I do think it would be reasonable to cut that back to maybe 6, since as you noted that’s about as many as could realistically be squeezed in if absolutely necessary, but it’s included and balanced around being a transport, which at this point is why most people would actually purchase the model.

[Jim Ripley]

I think if WG had scaled their troops to actual 28mm scale ( what ever that is ) , and made the vehicles the same , we might be better off . I have 3 of the plastic Bedford troop carrier trucks for which WG gives you 10 seated troops for the rear . I managed to fit in 12 by removing the center row of seats ( 6 each side ) . IRC the truck is supposed to carry about 24 troops back there , if you leave the  center row of seats in , you can’t fit any of the seated plastics without a lot of surgery .

Sorry for the tangent .  Now anyone want to comment on how the commanders from the WG plastic Pzr III , IV , V , VI & Tiger II are all different sizes , one being about 1/64th scale  to another being larger than my Tamiya 1/48 . I wish they would at least settle on one size for all tank crews . Due to having multiples of tanks and wanting crews in the hatches I have had to go to other  figure companies for crews

[Kepler]

I really do wish it was all truly the same scale. It’s especially annoying for me when they’re inconsistent with armaments; two vehicles will have the same gun but it’s visibly much larger on one model because it was designed to emphasize the gunner, at infantry scale. And like you noted, I prefer to assemble all of my tanks with hatches closed because the commanders either seem oversized (sometimes comically so) or are visibly smaller than the infantry running around.

It’s funny, because Warlord does make seated crew blocks that you can use on standard Hanomags to make them look full (e.g. https://us.warlordgames.com/products/seated-waffen-ss-squad-hanomag), but even then, if you notice, they could only make space for 10/12 theoretical passengers, and their legs are overlapping in a way that makes the aisle space unusable and gives the machine gunner nowhere to stand. I was thinking one could at least use something like this to see if you could seat ~3 men on the rear ‘bench’, but even then, in a compressed shoulder-to-shoulder pose, they’re too big.

[Jim Ripley]

I tried that block of figures and didn’t like it . Also tried the 6 man metal seated troop set . They are more scale but their feet made it difficult to jam them in . . Looking at pictures there wasn’t much room in the 251 , you were pretty much shoulder to shoulder and how you fit with canteen , bread bag , etc making you wider at the hips I have no idea . Most pictures of 10 – 12 men in the back are training or parade type occasions . Combat photos show 7 – 8 guys in the back . I managed to get 4 of the old early troops in with a couple kit bashed to jumping over the sides as was their habit to get out in a hurry , that rear door is a pia to get through fast . I have 3 running troops on single bases to portray guys who used the door . I really didn’t go to crazy on the door hinges as they are complicated and I couldn’t be bothered .

The pair of 251s has the seated truck passengers added sitting on the compartment sides , This way I was abel to add 7 to one track and 8 to the other , plus machine gunner , and yes there are driver figures crammed in their . I used somewhat smaller resin figures with feet cut off and helmets sanded down . These are part of a convoy of half doven vehicles , with a troop carrier Blitz  , cargo Blitz and a couple of 250s , radio vehicle and the 20mm turret .

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