Nice Knee-Jerk on the Tiger Fear Warlord…

[Tim Haslam]

Thomas the Tiger Tank!
I’d watch that show, Göring can be the fat controller…

The errata is an attempt, and I’m happy to play to it.
At least Warlord still support the rules with regular updates.

[Kar98k]

Yes, the errata is an attempt to fix things, but the majority of Bolt Action fans would have really liked to see:

“Page 50, Panzer IV G, H, J. Delete the Tiger Fear special rule.”

added to the errata.

Seems like a lot of Both Action gaming groups already do this with some sort of club/house rule that removes the Tiger Fear from the Panzer IV.

[Jan Doernte]

12 inches is a joke of a distance. At 12 inches it should effect even those firing at the TF vehicle.

The rule might have been a little bogus- but then again so is the cost of german tanks in general.

I guess I’m part of the 5%??

[Nat]

What you dont like paying 555 points for a Regular king tiger? :p

All tanks are over priced! Its a Hollywood style infantry game after all

But on your point of german tanks being overpriced…
For comparision A regular IS-3 is 600 points (super heavy with a DV of 12+ to the front) it loses Slow load, rear turret MMG and the option for a pintle HMG but its still 280 points more than an IS-2 (EDIT – and the IS-3 45 points more expensive than a king tiger!)

Or lets compare that IS-2 to a Tiger 320 v 395
heavy AT gun with 3″ HE v Super heavy AT gun
co-ax MMG v co-ax MMG (+1 shot)
hull mmg v hull mmg (+1 shot)
rear turret mmg v –
pintle HMG (25 points) v pintle MMG (15 points +1 shot)
slow load v tiger fear

Slow Load is about 20-30 point decrease in points and then you’ve got the difference in AT guns, 10 point increase for the IS2’s HE … you find out that all the tanks in the game are similarly priced.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Nat.
• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Nat.

[invisible officer]

The 12 Inch rule makes it even more stupid.

Tiger fear is a rule based on the Paranoia that made many western allied soldiers shiver by facing a Panzer. Any Panzer.

In Normandie fights we have many official Allied reports of being against a Tiger. In areas with no cat. Some even stood against French “Beutepanzer” or Sturmgeschütze without turret!

So Tiger fear is not based on the actual fighting value of a IV or VI. Giving it to Panzer IV is no mistake, if there is one it is that not all German tracked vehicles get it.

Psycho rules are hard to “sell”. That Allied soldiers could not see the difference – Impossible. Well, ask a judge working in car accident cases. “It was a Van, a SUV, a boat …….”

[Nat]

Actually … I think another way of doing it would be to add TF to the theater lists after late ’43 (and generic lists that have a late war tank)

Then update TF to read

TIGER FEAR: Opponents units suffer an additonal -1Ld for all order checks

This then gives the underlying fear of a tiger round the couner (not on the table top) but shouldnt over balance the game in the germans favour

[Tim Haslam]

I’m with invisible officer on this.
It’s a morale thing.
Allied tank crews were reluctant to commit and tired of fighting, besides by the time they landed in France thoughts were that the war was won! So why risk your life.
Some of the German crews on the other hand were very motivated, and very highly trained.
If you look at the eastern front and read actual first hand accounts, how else could the German tank crews take out many numbers of soviet tanks, compared to there own loses.
It’s just better or should I say ‘more’ motivated and slightly better equipment, add perhaps better training.

Every tank the allies fought, was doing such a good job it must be a tiger? Right?
Nope just a well handled panzer IV perhaps.

As I’ve said before, the rule is good idea, just doesn’t work well in practice.
I’d go for the morale check, but once passed you don’t take it again.
AND still include the MK IV!

• This reply was modified 4 years, 2 months ago by Tim Haslam.

[Kar98k]

Following up on the discussions above, I think changing the meaning of Tiger Fear is a pretty good idea. Tiger Fear can just be a simple modifier for units attempting to enter the game from reserve or outflank. This would make more sense than what it is now, and would better capture the flavor of the rule. However, since that means a complete rewrite of the Tiger Fear rule, sadly this will not happen.

Since a rewrite isn’t going to happen, I also like and support Tim’s idea. That is, leave Tiger Fear as is (before FAQ), but add that once a unit passes an order check that Tiger Fear (-1) was applied, that unit no longer suffers from Tiger Fear.

Both are good ideas.

[Crazynoob198]

What if the German tanks that get Tiger Fear get a rule out of the Tank Wars book? Eliminate the Debuff. Give them a buff to the crew. As far as I am aware, Tiger Fear is the only real debuff rule that exists, that and them poor Italians. If one of those Tiger Fear type tanks had a Tank War rule from Page 28-29 that could be interesting. Give them a little flavor to represent why they were so feared. Those rules already exist and are buffs which most armies have. This would eliminate the debuff mentality and that 12″ aura so that my enemy doesn’t get to know that they are within panzerfaust range. I also like the idea that the Panzer IV must have paid for the Schurzen to make it look more square and box in silhouette like the Tiger was.

[Kar98k]

Just a heads up guys. As of September 21, 2020, they changed the rule for Tiger Fear again. It now reads:

Page 17, Tiger Fear special rule). The first sentence of the rule
will be amended as follows:
All enemy units that are within 18” of, and have line of
sight to, one or more vehicle with the Tiger Fear special
rule (see the vehicles section of this army list) suffer from
Tiger Fear. Note that the 18” range is measured AFTER
you have declared which order you have given to the unit.
Units suffering from… […]

And once again they forgot to add, “Page 50, Panzer IV G, H, J. Delete the Tiger Fear special rule.”

[Nat]

I think they should take a leaf out of the Victory at sea book…where you set a year for your game..

that way you can put tiger fear as a national rule instead of a vehicle rule – ie 1944 & 1945 applys to all medium and heavy tanks

 

just an idea for v3….:p

[Kar98k]

“just an idea for v3….:p”

But also a good idea for v2.

[invisible officer]

I understand that peoples dislike the Tiger fear.  But it was a well intended rule based on history,  a psychological rule based on the Allied hystery about Tigers. Adding historical flavor.

We have literally hundreds of reports of being attacked by Tigers – with no kitten around for a hundred miles.

And in many Allied soldiers ran from “Tigers”, in fact mice. In cases even French S-35 Beutepanzer. Even wheeled Scout vehicles.

 

Well, it it adds a problem for Allied Forces Gamers. So if you want to play just games, historical like Germans against Japanese, ignore it. But if you want a game based on France 1944……

• This reply was modified 3 years, 6 months ago by invisible officer.

[Janos900]

Sorry but this is nothing about historical reality. First and foremost I play no Normandy at all, I play Fortress Budapest, I have read at least 20 Russian memoirs, they call all German AFV with tracks, but without turret as Ferdinands, and all Panzers are Tigers. But they does not seems to be frightened and paralized every time, when a German tanks appeared. They have KV-s, IS tanks to cope with Panzers. Not to mention SU-85 ect. So Your theory might be OK in Normandy, but not ok on the real mayor theatre. So Tiger Fear must be realted to fronts and not to be universal, if I follow Your thinking.

Also, I need to spend an activation with my unit to put 1 PIN on an enemy unit, Tiger Fear can place 1 PIN on 10 units or more without activation. How on Earth can that be not unbalanced?
Also never forget, the Germans had a very very powerfull and modern armoury and weapons, but they had very few of all compare to the Allies. Bolt Action players like boys in a sweet shop, can buy any and all candies for every battle, so this is already a big advantage, I do not think They really need Tiger Fear to be ahead of the other players.

[Nat]

So a little of history mixed with a bit of game play… using tank veterancy rules as a base idea…here is Nats idea! ™ :p

 

Tiger fear : 1943 onwards.  All German tanks with an armour value of 8+

If an activating unit can draw LoS to a unit with this rule it must take an order check or change its order to down or run, and must end its move at least half distance away OR out of sight to the unit with the rule  If it does not have any heavy weapons or anti tank grenades then it applies an additional -1 to the order check.  Activating Units with at least one weapon with an AT value of +4  or more ignore this rule.  Activating Units that dont have a weapon with an AT value of +4 or more but  have LoS to a friendly unit that does may ignore this rule on a 4+

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