new player with questions

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  • #189193
    mark
    Participant

    Hello there !

    Our little group has been a long standing players of Hail Ceaser , we have just branched into ECW in 28mm , our main question is

    A Batali , has a musketeer , pike block, musketeer , is that considered one unit ? or three ?

    thank you mark

    #189194
    Charge The Guns
    Participant

    Hi Mark – great to hear that you are giving P&S a try 👍.

    Great question and this can be a bit confusing because the answer is “yes”, ie you can play either way.   Some prefer to fight the pike and shot units separately as different units, and some prefer to fight as a single, combined unit.  In our group it varies depending on the size of game.  For very larger games, such as reconstructing Marston Moor, we have used combined units to speed up play.  For most games though, with perhaps no more than 5 or 6 pike and shot units a side, we fight them separately.

    If you have just the main rule book then you could try using the unit factors under the Sun King scenario (back of the book) for combined units.  If you have the ‘To Kill A King’ supplement (and why wouldn’t you! 😀) then this has some further suggested alternative factors for combined units.

    If you want to fight them as separate units then use the factors as per the main lists in either the main rule book or the supplements.

    Hope this helps, and good luck with you exploration of the period.

    Cheers,

    Andy @ FoGH.

    #189195
    mark
    Participant

    Thanks for getting back so quick !!

    We did intend to play them as three separate units , but , this then opens a new can of worms ,

    unit “A” comprising of one musketeer one pike block and another musketeer facing unit “B” comprising of the same , now in unit “A” turn the pike block decides to charge , unit “B”” pike block , now as we understand it , the player of unit “A” would have to  roll and give an order to the two musketeer units , to move up to support ??  if they were outside six ?

    Now as we understand it Unit “B” who is the defender , gets his musketeers for free ? as supports ? is that correct

    Now the next question is can ,Unit “A” musketeers , who are supporting, the pike block , can they fire at unit “B”s musketeers ?

    #189197
    Charge The Guns
    Participant

    Hi Mark,

    You’re right (see p62 of main rules).  The move of A’s musket blocks up to support the pike have to be a different order.

    When you come to work out the result of combat ‘supports’ have to be within 3”.  Note that supports don’t fight directly in the melee as they do in Hail Caesar, but instead give a modifier to the combat result.  So, if B’s musket blocks are within 3” of the pike block they can support.  One way to prevent B having this advantage is for A to charge all three units together 😀.

    Supports in P&S are not engaged in combat and so are free to shoot and also to be shot at.

    One slight oddity in the rules for which you may want to agree an interpretation in your group is if, in your example, B’s muskets could shoot at A’s pike unit as it charges in to B’s pike. Strictly speaking the rules don’t allow this and we have had several discussions about it.  We have decided to allow ‘supporting fire’ (we have made a similar special rule for commanded shot brigaded with horse) but important that everyone knows this at the start of the game.

    Hope the clarifications help. 👍

    #189198
    mark
    Participant

    Yes thanks for that ,my next question is

    So unit “A” pike block has charged home and the melee ends in a draw , in the next turn which will be “B”s turn , who is the in effect the attacker , does he still get the support from the musketeers , as he hasn’t ordered them to support ? or does he have to order them now to support ? to get the benefit from then ??

    thanks very much for your help , we cant quiet get our head round this , we did have a lot of trouble switching from Hail Ceaser to P & S

    #189199
    Charge The Guns
    Participant

    Hi Mark,

    Troops provide support based on their position relative to a combat.  The orders they have received that turn are irrelevant – you don’t need to be given an order to support to provide support.

    I wonder if perhaps the the section and Charging Units and Support Units (p62) is causing some confusion?  I can see that the first sentence of this section could be worded better.

    This section is trying to say that troops being moved up so they are in the right position to give support have to be given a different order to any troops in a group who are being ordered to charge.  You can’t give a single group order if one unit is to charge unless all of the units  actually charge.  You can’t use a group order to move one unit in to contact and to move other units forward.

    In your example, B’s muskets will provide support to the pike at the end of every melee based on their position (eg within 3”).  Orders don’t matter.

    Hope this helps?

    #189201
    mark
    Participant

    Hi there

    once again thank you for getting back to me , this has cleared it up completely we will be good to go Friday , thank you for your assistance

    mark

    #189202
    mark
    Participant

    however ???

    one last thing if the attackers musketeers happen to be within in three of the melee , but haven’t been given an order to support , can they still support ? or does the fact they haven’t been ordered bar them from acting as support ?

    mark

    #189203
    Dave Morris
    Participant

    Rules allow both options, but for ECW I prefer “combined units”, unless historical scenario suggests otherwise ( for example, some of the smaller battles involving Cheshire Foot seem to have been “ musket heavy” on the Parliamentary side).The whole point of having pikemen and musketeers in a unit was to offer mutual support. We have used the “ To Kill a King” suggestions, but I prefer the ideas in Wargames Design’s blog. (link below) This allows a bit more flexibility in troop types and, in my limited experience, plays very well on the table.

    https://www.wargamesdesigns.com/ecw-blog

    https://www.wargamesdesigns.com/uploads/8/8/4/5/8845944/pike___shotte_amendments_for_pdf.pdf

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Dave Morris.
    • This reply was modified 11 months, 1 week ago by Dave Morris.
    #189207
    Charge The Guns
    Participant

    Hi Mark

    If the musketeers are within 3” of the pike then they can provide support.  Being able to provide support does not depend in anyway on the order a unit has received.  Good luck 👍.

    Hi Dave,

    I think I’ve seen these before, but a good reminder and they are certainly a well thought through set of factors for using combined units. 👍

    #189208
    mark
    Participant

    That’s great , that has really cleared up the misunderstanding , we were about to give up on the rules , as we could not work it out , you have been a real help thank you from the three of us

    mark

    #189213
    Charge The Guns
    Participant

    You’re very welcome, Mark.

    I’m glad you’ll be giving the rules another go – I definitely think they are worth it.  The overall system is straightforward, especially as you’re already up to speed with HC.  They are also very flexible and easy to tinker with.

    #189608
    Tomasz Rejf
    Participant

    Can dragoons change formation to the battle line?

    Regards

    #189610
    Charge The Guns
    Participant

    Hi Tomasz,  I think for ECW or TYW dragoons the rules expect them to stay as skirmishers whether mounted or dismounted.  See the description on p 83 of the main rule book or p114 of the Epic P&S rule book.   The information on changing formation (main rule book p28) certainly suggests some units can move from battle line to skirmish and back again.  I don’t think there is any historical precedent to say the dragoons couldn’t fight in regular ranks and files, so I would allow personal interpretation in my games.

    It is perhaps something to agree with you opponents before the game starts if you think it will be an issue?

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