Large unit stats

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  • #186513
    East Norfolks
    Participant

    Evening all

    Question on unit classification for anyone who knows how the BP2 rules and AT2 supplement interact.

    Should the British 1/52nd at Waterloo be considered a large unit (they had over 1,100 men)?  If so (I would have thought yes), what stats should it have for H2H/Shooting/Morale/Stamina?

    A standard light battalion is meant to be 6/3/4+/3 according to page 105 of the AT2.  The main rules then suggest upgrades of +2 for H2H (page 68), +1 for Shooting (page 48) and +1 for Stamina (page 18).  This would make modified stats of 8/4/4+/4.

    This seems excessive when you compare it to the Foot Guards (which were also big battalions) on page 105 of AT2, which have stats of 7/4/3+/4.

    I accept that the Foot Guards have special rules of Reliable and Elite 3+, which are fairly strong additional characteristics.  Should I put 1/52nd Shooting down to 7 as well, and then consider that the Foot Guards 3+ Morale and their additional special rules is enough of a difference?

    Would welcome any thoughts.

    Thanks

    • This topic was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by East Norfolks.
    #186514
    Big Al
    Participant

    The supplements are not great when it comes to things like this. They could be referring to reduced numbers in a unit on campaign after losses and desertions. It could just be a misprint or error by the author that was missed during proof reading.

    Remember that the rules in the supplements are only suggestions, whereas the rules in the rulebook are rules! That means that you don’t have to use the rules in the supplements. It also means that if there is any doubt, the rulebook takes precedence. The stat upgrades that you mentioned are correct and are repeated on the QRS. Also, because you no longer have the points system available to you, you can’t work out whether the points match the stat line.

    Basically, the foot guards should be 8/4/3+/4.

    Also, large units are now more viable since V2 was released because the rules regarding the number of units that can engage a single unit on a quarter has been changed. Now that only one unit may contact one unit, the increased stats will now give the large unit a chance.

    #186517
    East Norfolks
    Participant

    Thanks Big Al – this is helpful.  Yes, maybe you are right – just stick with the main rules.  Therefore:

    Foot Guards  = 8/4/3+/4 plus Reliable and Elite 3+  (I like the way this compares to the French Old Guard stats as well – very even)

    52nd/large battalion = 8/4/4+/4

    Standard battalion = 6/3/4+/3

    This seems about right.

    Good point on the amended v2 rules re units engaging a large unit.

    #186522
    Garry Wills
    Participant

    Looking at p.110 in AT2, where an upgrade for large unit is given, I think the profile for a Guards unit on p.105 (7/4/3+/4)  refers to a standard sized unit (although increasing the stamina as well as the morale is a probably overkill). Thus a large Guard unit would be 9/5/3+/5 under AT2. Not sure I agree with this but that is my interpretation of the supplement.

    Best regards

    Garry

     

    #186524
    East Norfolks
    Participant

    Thanks Garry – I see your point.  To make it even more complicated, I’ve just noticed that on page 160 of the main rules in the scenario section, Guards units (although generic not specifically British) are listed as 7/3/3+/3 with special rules of Elite 4+ and reliable.

    I wish that, when the writers of the rules and supplements amend basic stats, they would explain if it is due to the qualities of the unit or it being large (or a combination of both).

    I am now thoroughly confused again as to what to rate my (large) British Foot Guards and (large) 1/52nd!

    #186525
    Nat
    Participant

    rough rule of thumb…units are made of groups (called companies in the rules but not historical companies) tiny are 1-2, small 3-4, normal 5-6 & large are 7-8

    each group is about 80-100ish men – however this number is flexiable, so a group of 95th may represent less than a group of 42nd

    each group provide 1 hth, .5 shooting & .5 stamina.  hth is rounded to the next even number, shooting & stamina are rounded to the next number
    Elite units add 1 hth to the total
    Some units have an extra point of stamina assigned to them to represent extra determination in the field and sticking past the point units would normally break (eg Old Guard, British Foot Guards, Russian line infantry etc) some have less or even a vairable amount of stamina….

    Now Russian line infantry with their 4 stamina are only rated small or normal and can never go up to large even though they had the numbers….

    If you use the points/AT2 ‘pickup’ Division lists then that large unit of british foot guards is 70 points!  Whilst being limited to 2 battalions in the single brigade per 1000 points… 2 standard line battalions is only 12 points more… that gives you 6 stamina v 5 of the guards, 6 shooting v 4, 12 v 9hth…..

    The key point is though, Black Powder is written as a Frame Work /Gentelmans game NOT a lawyer tombe (ala Warmachine or 40k) so feel free to tweek the stats are you and your group feel is right.  Eg dont give the guards the extra pip of stamina when they go large as its deminishing returns on courage sort of thing!

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by Nat.
    #186528
    Garry Wills
    Participant

    To be fair the rules specifically state that most units are supposed to be standard size and therefore all basic profiles should be read from that perspective, so your large 52nd Foot would be 8/4/4+/4 and as I said the large Foot Guards would be 9/5/3+/5, according to AT2. Personally I would give the Guards the same stamina as the Light Infantry as they already have the 3+ morale save, but that is upto you. ( The light infantry need on average 8 hits to become shaken, while the Guards need 12 hits at Stamina 4 and 15 at Stamina 5).

    #186532
    East Norfolks
    Participant

    Thanks all for your comments – appreciated. Will have to give this a bit of thought!

    #186578
    Dr Dave
    Participant

    Why not count uber large units as two standard units in extreme cases. 1000+ might be in this realm of an average French bttn (at Waterloo) is 600.

    …and while I’m here don’t forget that most cuirassier regts at Waterloo are small units!

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