Hitlers Buzzsaw

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  • #174304
    Tim Haslam
    Participant

    I’m building a Hungarian force at the moment,
    It includes a German supplied MKIII and an Allied German MKIII,
    I assume that both vehicles get the buzzsaw rule?
    I only ask because the errata is a bit fuzzy on this?

    On a similar subject, does the Hungarian Panther get ‘Tiger Fear’?

    Thanks

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    #174312
    Nat
    Participant

    If the unit is the Axis Support choice then yes… IF its another other slot then no….

    Reason – as per the FAQ Additional German units get all German rules, which is the terminology used in the Axis Support Rule.

    So the Hungarian German supplied MkIII DOESNT get buzzsaw yet the German manned one does.

    Your Panther is not found in the Hungarian Units in the ‘Italian & …forces’ book therefore if its not included in a campaign book the only way for you to include one would be as the German Unit through the Axis Support National Rule. So to that end yes It which would get Tiger Fear (& Hitlers Buzzsaw).
    EDIT 2 – OR as said below In theater lists you can use the German Equipment rule without TF & Buzzsaw.

    Edit – its the same way as the Vet M4 Sherman in US lists gets Gyrostabalisers yet it doesnt in a British or Russian list.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Nat.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Nat.
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    #174314
    Tim Haslam
    Participant

    Ok, thanks.
    I’m painting both my panzer III’s as Hungarian ones.
    Just because it looks good!
    So I’ll just use them without the special German rules.
    No big deal.

    Weird?
    I thought, in theory, you could field 2 Panthers in the late war theatre selector?
    1 Hungarian and 1 German?
    (You can using Easy Army)

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Tim Haslam.
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    #174316
    Nat
    Participant

    Ok my mistake… after quick re-read of the rules (I play Russians!)….
    In the Theater lists* you can run two like you said (1 Hungarian & 1 German) as Panther A & G are in the German Supplied Equipement list.

    *So NOT in a Generic Platoon list.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Nat.
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    #174321
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    Historically “Hitler’s Buzzsaw” is a nickname for the MG42.
    Since neither the Pzkpfw III or IV had the MG42 then I would say no.

    From my data books no German tank was fitted with the MG42 except the JadgTiger which had one for the cupola though photographs seldom show it mounted.

    However, the rules say “German made MGs but in particular the lethal MG42 …” Then go to the MMG Team Rule in the German Rule Book which states that the MG42 known to the Allies as Hitler’s Buzzsaw”. So one rule implies its application to all German made LMG and MMG. But another states categorically that “Hitler’s Buzzsaw” is the MG42 particularly the MMG tripod mount. So it appears to hedge its bets. As written you can say that using the first rule that the “Buzzsaw” rule can be used by the Maxim MG08, MG13, MG34, MG35, MG15 and MG42 but not the MG30 which was made in Switzerland. Or using the other rule that it only applies to the MG42.

    The Warlord Games blurb for the MG42 MMG team states –
    “Known as “Hitler’s Buzzsaw” on account of its high rate of fire. The MG42 fired 1250 rounds/minute, more than twice that of the British Vickers Machine Gun and American Browning. Add this tremendous firepower to your Germans and give your infantry some much needed support.

    Unlike other armies, the Germans used the same machine gun both as a squad weapon and as a tripod mounted support weapon. The tripod mount provided a much more stable firing platform and made it easier to keep up a continuous fire using a belt feed.”

    This implies that is only the MMG that gets the bonus. We play that only the MG42 MMG (inc those on SdKfz 251 and other vehicle mounts when stationary) gets the Buzzsaw rule. We also play historical size units so that the MG42 LMG &MMG team is 3-4 men as the penalty of double the rate of fire is carrying double the ammo!

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    #174322
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    Alan Hamilton, the only rule for Hitler’s Buzzsaw and it’s effect in game is the national rule, AoG, p17, and is as simple as “German light and medium machine guns fire one extra shot.” – not even a mention of German made – if it’s a machine gun in a German list, it’s covered by that sentence regardless which MG type is modelled

    The preceding sentence is fluff justifying the rule, the following sentence is confirmation that it applies to both infantry and vehicle MGs.

    The mention in the MMG entry is fluff, not a rule. If it was a special rule only applicable to that unit it would be in the special rules line of the stats (ie: like Tiger Fear appears in the special rules of relevant vehicles), not just in the introductory fluff.

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    #174324
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    No, the rule is in Bolt Action Version 2 main rule book that I quoted is:
    Page 154 “German-made machine guns, but in particular the lethal MG42, are vastly superior to their enemies’ and rightly feared by Allied infantrymen. German light and medium machine guns fire one extra shot. Note that this applies to all light and medium machine guns, both those carried by infantry units and those mounted on vehicles.”

    and in the MG team rule
    Page 158 “The Germans were equipped with two excellent machine guns in the MG34 and rapid firing MG42 – known to Allied troops as ‘Hitler’s Buzzsaw’ because of its distinctive noise. Unlike other armies the Germans used the same machine gun both as a squad weapon and as a tripod mounted support weapon. The tripod mount provided a much more stable firing platform and made it easier to keep up a continuous fire using a belt feed. We therefore treat the tripod-mounted gun as a medium machine gun, whilst the squad weapon is treated as a light machine gun. As described in the rules for team weapons, although crew members would be likely to carry rifles or submachine guns we consider them to be preoccupied serving their weapon and so do not include separate arms.”

    And in the German Army book v1
    “HITLER’S BUZZ SAW German-made machine guns, but in particular the lethal MG42, are vastly superior to their enemies’ and rightly feared by Allied infantrymen. German infantry units equipped with light and medium machine guns fire one extra shot (4 for a LMG and 5 for a MMG). Note that this only applies to infantry units, and not to vehicles or vehicle crews that carry machine-guns.”
    But in V2
    HITLER’S BUZZ SAW German-made machine guns, but in particular the lethal MG42, are vastly superior to their enemies’ and rightly feared by Allied infantrymen. German light and medium machine guns fire one extra shot. Note that this applies to all light and machine guns, both those carried by infantry units and vehicle mounted ones.

    Fluff it may be but it is the justification for the rule and therefore part of it.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by Alan Hamilton. Reason: Adding V2 quote
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    #174326
    Stuart Harrison
    Participant

    Fluff is not part of the rule and never has been. It is narrative flavour and in some cases a justification why a rule/unit etc is included in the game, no more and no less.

    The fluff is usually followed by the actual rule which tells you what criteria apply to trigger it, and the in game effects of it being triggered. It may then be followed by notes, clarifications, examples etc.

    I’d swear half the errors made in interpreting the rules is getting distracted by the fluff and not focussing on the part that actually tells you the criteria for the rule to apply, and the in game effect when that criteria has been met.

    The criteria for Hitler’s Buzzsaw to apply is that it’s a German light or medium machine gun. If that criteria is met, it fires one extra shot. There is nothing built into the rule confining it to a particular model of MG, just “German light and medium machine guns”.

    If the fluff you’re getting distracted by in the MMG entry was meant to in any way confine Hitler’s Buzzsaw to that entry, there would be no mention of “light” in the national rule.

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