German Army lists

[Eric Fontaine]

Chat, brag, ask questions, seek advice, or posts lists here and let the community give you some feedback! Be warned, it can be good and bad.

[Boaz]

1000 points fallschirmjager, 12 order dice …

60 (Reg) new young 2nd lieutenant +Aid , both SMGs

38 (Vet) Medic + Aid

2×133 2×7 Fallschirmjager nco AR + 3 AR and 3 Panzerfaust

2×143 2×7 Fallschirmjager with 2 MMGs and a Panzerfaust

65 (Vet) Sniper team

104 (Vet) Panzerschrek team

50 (Reg) MMG team

70 (Reg) Lg40/1 Recoilless howitzer

40 (Reg) Motorcycle with MMG sidecar

21 (Inex) Kettenkrad

The motorcycle and kettenkrad would fit in fallschirmjäger air transports so where commonly used, as was the recoilless once the germans got a bazooka to look over … if the recoilless starts in a good spot the kettenkrad will move the panzerschrek into a good tank hunting position wail the motorcycle and MMG nest try to set up a crossfire to aid the two assaulty fallschirmjager advance … the shooty fallschirmjäger units will try to hold objectives and put up a wall of fire …

[invisible officer]

A nice working game list. OK, I would nagg about the non historical composition of the Gruppen… 😉

Of Topic……
The Ofenrohr / Panzerschreck was influenced by Bazooka, but no copy. It was the result of a rocket Project that lingered around. A technical team from Heereswaffenamt was sent to check the captured arms. The reason for the myth. The famous Morawitz among them. Post war he was one of the best known German arms experts. (And his wife made superb cakes)

[Boaz]

My bad… I was referring to the recoilless howitzer , witch was not copied from the bazooka but the American recoilless gun.

And if you have a good link or three to what a proper (post crete) gruppen looks like I’d be very interested … though I could see a force something like this around Kirovograd late 43 … 2nd fallschirmjäger working with the 11th panzer or in an assault supported by the 286 assault gun detachment in the hills around Novhordivka.

[invisible officer]

The German Gruppe, Heer or Luftwaffe alike, was built around the light machine gun. So the standard one had 1 in early to mid war and often two in late war.
The FG 42 had been the idea of the “all in one” School but never replaced the LMG. Some 7.500 made 43-45, compare that to the inflated number of “Fallschirmjäger”(often without jump Training) serving 43-45.
The Sturmgewehr 44 too was never available in the large numbers the last OOB asked for. In late 44 still more LMG than Sturmgewehre at the front. So in a historical force you should have 1 -2 AR for any LMG but not more.

Hmm, ;-). The small 7,5 cm Leichtgeschütz 40 used early in war had no lineage to any US weapon in army use. Development started 1937 at Rheinmetal. The 10,5 cm LG is the child of that German design. At Kreta the 7,5 cm was a success but a bigger one was wanted. It fired the same grenades the Standard Heer 10,5 cm LFH used but with another carge.

[Stuart Harrison]

“My bad… I was referring to the recoilless howitzer , witch was not copied from the bazooka but the American recoilless gun.”

Pretty sure the US recoilless rifles entered service after the German 75mmLG 40, which the 105mm LG 40 was based on. The 75mm LG 40 was used in Crete while the 57mm M18 wasn’t used until about 1944, so pretty hard for the Germans to have copied the Americans.

[Eric Fontaine]

Fellas, Looks like a conversation for the rivet counters section…

[Boaz]

Huh, the armies of Germany clearly stated the germans based their recoilless on the erlyer America designs … maybe pre war projects ?

Germans did not handle weapons like the allies but had a pool to draw from, the officer would often assign weapons based on mission needs … in the above example the 4 units balance out to 1 LMG and 2 AR per squad , numbers you mentioned , but the young lieutenant in charge doubled up his LMGs in 2 units as well and grouped his assault rifles in 2 others … using his men like 2 large 14 man units he can still have the LMGs lay down cover fire as the rest of the ‘unit’ maneuvers on the enimy position, standard german unit tactics.

Units can’t split up in bolt action, 3 guys with LMG hold a strong fire position as the rest of the squad flanks … but 2 units can still operate in the same manner … so I can have units that look right but can’t use standard tactics or units that look a lil off but feel right maneuvering on the table.

[invisible officer]

There was no AR pool for the Gruppe and Zug. The individual weapon was even entered in the Soldbuch and the soldier was fully responsible for keeping it in good condition. He aso had the Special Equipment like AR Magazine pouches and the Special Magazine loader.

Only in case of kia or wounded the AR or SMG went to another, replacing his K 98 that had to be given back to regimental store. The AR was entered in the Soldbuch of the new owner and the K 98 stricken. Germans had been masters of war but gods of paper war.

The LMG tactics are so deep rooted in German Training that no Leutnant would play around with them. Taking the core from a Gruppe was something that would make the Major inquiring a lot.
The Gruppe was the Basic, the men knew each other and knew how each member acts. So no shifting around in Platoon/Zug. The men hated to be with strangers. And nobody with AR gave it to another Gruppe.

You will see the pics of soldiers on Holiday with the rifle. In winter 44/45 the AR was taken home like any other rifle. It was not like the MG that was on unit inventory, the soldier had the pistol as his sidearm and took that home.

—
Well, some BA books include big historical xxxxxxxx

😉

[Stuart Harrison]

“Based on an original American idea”, not an American design – they applied the same principle as was used in a WW1 era experimental weapon by a different method.

[Boaz]

Unlike the Allied armed forces the german war establishment did not assign weapons to individuals but to platoons … all platoon small arms would be drawn from the same pool, the gun you drew you maintained but it was not yours it was the platoons.

A typical fallschirmjäger platoon post crete pre FG-42 pool of weapons was …

16 rifles (3 with telescope sights)
13 pistol
9 SMGs
3 Kampfpistole (grenade pistols)
6 rifle grenade adapters
6 machine guns

Luftwatten war establishment 8121 (L) date 1.5.44

Compared to a typical german army platoon of 33 men …

22 rifle
5 pistol
7 SMGs
4 machine guns

…

And I have herd the production numbers as a guide for % of AR in the field but not all units where equipped the same, more so in the fallschirmjager where the first few founding where true elete vs later founding under equipped and under trained .

…

On a further side note , just to nag about non historical composition , how many platoon where issued a single mortar or artillery piece … ever ?

It’s just a game, it’s not perfect, and nether are any of us.

[invisible officer]

Unlike the Allied armed forces the german war establishment did not assign weapons to individuals but to platoons … all platoon small arms would be drawn from the same pool, the gun you drew you maintained but it was not yours it was the platoons.
Where did you got that from? The individual weapon (rifle / AR/pistol) was in the Soldbuch, just have a look in an original one. Or in Heeresdienstvorschriften.

The platoon had no Waffenmeister, that was the guy responsible for repairs and checking that nothing was lost.

I know that in English books some strange / funny / stupid ideas about Wehrmacht are circulating.
Pool weapons are AT ones, Mortars and MG. The things that ever stayed with the unit.

—
No infanty platoon was issued an artillery piece or PAK. It could get one together with Crew as support for a mission but that weapon still belonged to the battery.
The German infantry officers Training included Pioneer, artillery, PAK and AA courses but the infantry OR had none. So a cannon would be wasted with a Company.
In BA the guns are not part of the infantry but “in the area”. Since few would buy a full 28 mm battery the single model is a compromise. Representing a battery in effect, in war it tokk a lot of grenades to hit a guy. 😉

But infantry fighting is 1/1 Ratio.

—
The FG AR went mostly to Fallschirmjäger, but again: 7.500 only made. Less than 5.000 in front use, the rest in test and Training. (Hundreds in tests, strange)
And the Sturmgewehr? Luftwaffe got 4.320. Nothing like “elite” FJ got AR first.
281.860 made in 1944, most in second half. And in 124.616 in 1945.
But a quarter did not reach front units. Over 100.000 stayed with depot Units in Germany. All wanted the “super rifle” so all with some influence claimed one. Officers, Party members.
Even in the divisions many stayed with staff or support. Most officers entitled to a MP 40 changed. (The Sturmgewehr was on paper for the paper warriors a Maschinenpistole) And the MP 40 was handed back to regimental store, not just given to an OR. And from Regiment it went to home Depot.

Back to FJ Gruppe. Some 10.000 AR of the two types available to the front, depot and training units.
Not much for the enormous number of men serving under FJ Label.
And again, there was no: “Those who need it most get it” in Wehrmacht front units. Nobody gave his personal arm to another guy. The “owner” was responsible for it.

[Dom]

Welcome back IO 🙂 !

[Boris Peters]

My list from the latest tournament I attended. Not historical correct in any way, but still great fun.

platoon1
Second Leutnant with smg, veteran.

Fallschirmjager squad late war ,7 men, 1 LMG, 1 AR, 1 PZF

Fallschirmjager squad late war, 7 men, 1 LMG, 1 AR, 1 PZF

Panzerschreck team, regular

Schwimmwagen transport, regular

SDKFZ 234/3 heavy armoured car with light howitzer + mmg, recce, dual steering, regular

PLatoon2

Second leutnant with smg, regular

Luftwaffe field division squad, 10 men, 1 LMG, 2 PZF, 3 SMG’s, green, inexperienced.

Fallschirmjager squad late war, 7 men, 2 AR, 3 SMG’s

SDKFZ 234/2’PUMA’heavy armoured car with medium AT gun + coax mmg, recce, dual steering.

[Boris Peters]

And indeed nice to see you here again IO.

[Author]

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