Ferdinand Tank Balancing

[Seb Brady]

I just thought I would raise this through the forums. Tried to look through the FAQ for a contact and the other contact numbers were just for the store or the shop.

Are points for the game ever looked into and reviewed? Or can someone explain to me about the points around this vehicle?

This is my favourite armoured vehicle, its what got me started playing the game when I found out we could use them, so understandably I want to use them as much as I can.

The problem I have is the points they cost, 400-600 based on crew xp, is massively high for fielding the one gun with massive drawbacks from the extra pins constantly suffered. Especially given that the early panther and jadgtiger doesnt suffer any penalty when their reliability was just as questionable as the Ferdinand. And in the latter’s case is even less points. Vehicle choice aside it basically means from a list building view, there is no really need to take this vehicle? I could just take a Tiger I/Tiger, or any of the other Tank Destroyers armed with an 88mm.

I could rant all day but I would just like to know if there is a process to report this as feedback to someone to look into?

Sorry if this topic causes a problem. I just love this game and the feel of it, and Just would like to use these vehicles in games that are not friendlies at my local store or with friends. Where they become a viable vehicle choice.

Thank you for reading.

[Stuart Harrison]

People have been complaining about the vehicle costing system used in the game since first edition. Each step in damage value costs significantly more than the previous step – as does each step in AT guns. That 11+ armour is expensive.

You also might want to check you’re comparing apples with apples…

“Especially given that the early panther and jadgtiger doesnt suffer any penalty when their reliability was just as questionable as the Ferdinand. And in the latter’s case is even less points. ”

Yes, the Jagdtiger is 560 points while the Ferdinand/Elefant is 600 points, but that 560 point Jadgtiger is only regular, the 600 point Ferdinand is veteran – the regular Ferdinand is 500 points, 60 points less than the corresponding Jagdtiger, while the Jagdtiger isn’t even available as veteran.

The unreliability of the early Panther is reflected in the Operation Citadel selector rather than the unit entry.

[Greg S]

Looking at tanks with armour 11+, SH AT guns. all regular:

Ferdinand 500 points, unrelaible Tiger fear, no MGs, slow
Tiger II 555 pts, turret, 2 MMGs TF
Jagdtiger, 560 pts, no turret, 1 MMG, BFG, TF

The Russian IS3 doesn’t have a SH AT but clocks in at 600 points!

The US don’t manage armour 11+, but the a SH AT on the Pershing it is a paltry 395.

Comparing those big tanks, the Peshing looks cheap,and the IS3 expensive. Of the Germans the Tiger II is probably best for a game of Bolt Action because of it’s turret and MMGs.

Would I ever play any of these in a game of Bolt Action, no. AT guns are overcosted and armour 11+ is expensive and largely unnecessary.

Would I use them in a game of Tank War? Yes. And the Ferdinand would look very tempting for the points.

[Felix]

yeah tank costs are a real bummer. I and many others can feel the pain 😀

i find most frustrating (as dozens before me and dozens after me will say) the point cost difference between same slot vehicles for enclosed SPG’s (ferdinand being one, technically). For example on of my favs, the Stug 3 the arguably overall most effective, most produced and iconic german fighting vehicle. would be so cool to have it as a viable choice when building a competitive list. but for 5 points more you get a Pz4 with same armor, same gun, but turret and extra MMG… oh yeah and that small thing called tigerfear glued to its fender. this is true for pretty much all enclosed SPGs across all nations and books. Warlord repeatedly explained itself saying the pointcost actually vary by more than that but the rounding often brings it so close together. this, to me, is respectfully a quite poor excuse, something that could easily be fixed. Essentially ignoring the abilities and versatility of a turret and extra weapons on said turret when allocating pointcost seem not very well thought-through. 5-10pt difference for massive drawbacks on the SPG compared to turret counterpart should warrant either special rules in regards to setup, ambush, cover etc or cut the pointcost down by probably 20-30%.

my favorite tank, the jagdpanther (WOT/WT), will hardly ever see the light of day for its abstruse pointcost for 1, but moreover for its stats when measuring up to a tiger. this is like a 1% point difference here.

[Michael]

Personlly if you like it take it and dang the cost, i have a huge soft spot for the Marder III and its first thing i take in any German list i make that it’s an option for, generally it doesnt make it’s points back but that isnt the point. Of course i also rarely play outside casual games so mileage may vary

[Richard]

Vehicle armour and gun pricing is less than ideal.

AT guns and armour are extremely expensive whereas vehicle MGs are far too cheap.

[Felix]

Michael, I mean no offense, but the marder III does not compare to the ferdinand and its struggle. Actually I would argue that the Marder 3 is the single best point/power ratio heavy gun in the german book right now – in no way struggeling like the big tanks or the big tankhunters moreover (as Seb Brady pointed out).

It packs a heavy AT on a mobile tracked platform and the usual config says to buy the +5pts MMG to have the MMG pintle mounted instead of hullmounted for good 360 spraying at 170pts.
The marder III can take on ALL enemy tanks in normal and competitve play, even the 1 in 100 churchill or panther you barely come across are no big issue, whilst costing the bare bone minimum points for this class of vehicle.

To detail out this comparison, and why i keep ranting on enclosed TD’s I listed all vehicles in the class and rated them (my opinion):

#1 Marder 3: 165pts, 1fw mmg, +5pt pintle mmg
basic heavy gun, but gets mmg for 5points more, can make it pintled and may fire both weapons every turn.
#2 RSO/P49: 145pts, NO mmg, SLOW
slow is a downside, but these guys dont move much and are ime kept in reserve as counters to enemy armor. it is an absolute bare bone mobile tank-counter. great for that, but nothing else. great points.
#3 Marder 2: 160pts, MMG fires OR maingun
basic AT tank, better than the others because it has a free optional MMG packed for tight situations
#4 SdKfz8Pak18: 160pts, NO mmg, ‘turret’, halftracked
basic TD (160, heavy gun on 7+), lacks all mmgs, but with halftracked and a NOT-fixed gun is much more mobile, better than #5, imo, because of the ‘turreted gun’
#5 Sdkfz251/22pak: 160pts, +15pt REAR mmg, halftracked
again basic TD, with option for rear mounted mmg. which is basically useless.
#6 Hetzer: 210pts, medium, enclosed, 360deg mmg, soft sides
probably the best of the enclosed TD’s from all books imo, but still to expensive for what it does. Argument could be made for it being a semi-battletank, but the soft sides keep it in your backyard to avoid flanking. low silhouette gets you decent cover as opposed to the other tanks of this list, but since all these thingies here aim to fight enemy tanks 99% of the time it is more of a surprise counter attack. again. point could be made that this guy is so small and has good enough armor to start the game deployed and deny his arcs of fire from enemy tank movement. but id go with something cheaper to do the same job (eg reserved mobile AT like the excellent marder 3)
#7 75mmPak40: 110pts, infantry gun
As you can tell, for me dedicated AT is meant to counter tanks. so coming from reserve is a HUGE thing for me. the infantry gun struggles when having to move (cant shoot) and moreover even suffers when turning. only upsides are the low point costs and easy access to hard cover. However, youd be better off with a medium/heavy howitzer for the same points with much more flexibility and stopping power
#8 StugIII: 230pts, medium, enclosed, 360deg mmg
just an overall terrible option. +5 points buys you a panzer 4 with same armor and gun, but an additional mmg, turret and the all imposing tigerfear. they really did a number on the stug.
#9 JAgdpzIV: 270pts, medium, hvy front, 1fw mmg
just bad. too expensive and immobile, has to turn to target, then exposing its flanks half the time which negates the cool ‘heavy front’ rule. whats the point of this. May as well look at the IV(L70) for the super heavy gun to really 1shot enemy armor, but then again, like the marder and the ferdinand, you may as well spend the +5 points to get the full battletank of the same tier (in this case panther, which again has turret, extra mmg and tigerfear)
# 10 Ferdinand(for shits in giggles, obviously not the same tier, but since its the same role on the table can be compared here): 500pts, +heavy on +heavy, NO mmg (wait what?), slow, unreliable
overgunned and overarmored for normal play. pointcost beyond making sense. AT rifles put 2 pins on it half the time they hit, which is insane and negate the super heavy armor. slow makes this thing unable to escape ranging in artillery etc (has to leave position by 2″, being what, like 6″ long you would finish your move still touching where you came from, so range in still in efffect), the upgrade MMG cost +10pts, instead like earlier for marder 3 only +5. why? we dont know! probably to not have this terrible terrible tank in any way look good.
Get this thing, or a Kingtiger for +50 points with a turret, no slow, no unreliable, +2 mmgs (12shots). no brainer – non option

• This reply was modified 4 years, 7 months ago by Felix.

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