Mick

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  • #187112
    Mick
    Participant

    Cheers DD, so really I’m getting the feeling that if I play on a large table with forces starting on either side I should use march to get my troops where I want them as quick as poss, but if I’m on a small table or deployment zones are really close then I should probably deploy in line?

    #187091
    Mick
    Participant

    Ok so I went back through the BP core and Epic ACW book and I understand about skirmishing units. There are 2 sections that mention about cavalry being skirmishers, so thats all good. BUT! On page 12 of the Epic book it says ALL infantry can form in mixed order which I understand, so all good there as well, but the second paragraph states that 1 regiment in every brigade can be designated as light infantry and can deploy in skirmish formation. What would be the point of designating regiments as light infantry when ALL my regiments can form mixed order anyway? Is it the fact that light infantry can DEPLOY in skirmish order?

    This still brings me back to another question that I asked but don’t really understand the answer. The whole deployment thing. The only thing I can see about deployment is in the scenarios, so it will show me the deployment zone, the Battle of Greenbrier River tells me I can deploy however I want, but the others it just gives the zone and nothing else, so can I deploy however I want and in which formation I want?

    I guess the real question is how often will an order fail if I just move my units around the battlefield in line formation? Obviousy a lot of the scenarios might have deployment zones scattered all over the map, but the Greenbrier River one you deploy at each others table edge. On a 6’x4′ table it would take me 5 turns or less moving in line formation at 12cm (epic conversion) per turn (minimum) , assuming I succeed in all my command tests. All of the brigade commanders have a staff rating of 8 with the exception of 1 who is a general with a 9. Now as they are already in Line formation I don’t have to waste time changing formations when I have reached my battle line. So is the point of the march column formation to GUARENTEE a successful test and get me those 3 moves? To get to that battle line so I can set up quicker than the opposing player?

    #186999
    Mick
    Participant

    The holding the horses makes alot of sense, I think I might just go with at approach although it does mean I’ll lose a stand while dismounted.

     

    Thanks for the replies

    #186996
    Mick
    Participant

    Yeah someone on my hobby group suggested using it as the fourth stand, didn’t even occur to me, lol. Certainly makes things easier.

    Thanks for the reply

    #186987
    Mick
    Participant

    Happy New Year to you all as well guys, hope you have a geat year and may all your battles be victorious and fruitful, unless you’re playig each other in which case my condolences to the defeated 🙁

    I think I must have been misinterpreting the free move section, after reading your posts I went back on it and read the sections on initiative moves and free moves. Initially I thought the free move only came in to play if you failed a command order. But now going back over it I read the sentence “A unit in March Column,…….can move once EVEN when an order is failed”. So the keyword EVEN. So even if the order is passed I still get a free move? If so then this makes alot more sense, so while your units in line are stuck where they but your units in column can still keep moving.

    As for the points I might just have that sussed, going through the army lists in GH I thik it pretty much as it covered, the only thing I need to do is adjust pts for any smaller or larger units. That being said I don’t think I will have to worry about a pointed system in teh short term what with all the scenarios, I hink I might just put something together in a spreadsheet so it’s all in one place and make some reference cards to print out.

    I’ve even started undercoating my first regiment today, so it looks like this might tanke priority over my Bolt Action force I am currently collecting.

    Thanks again chaps

    • This reply was modified 6 months ago by Mick.
    #186983
    Mick
    Participant

    Well after the last couple posts you guys have wrote I think I am a lot more re-assured, still a lot to take in, so I think what I will do is just take forces of equal size and play a few games to get my head round everything. The fundamentals I don’t think will be an issue as they are more or less the same in any combat game just with some tweaks / additions. it’s mainly the conversion I am struggling with, not the measurments that is easy enough, it’s more the weapons. It feels like I have to grab tit bits from each book get get the information I need 🙁 or I have the pieces to a jigsaw in multiple boxes.

    @Gary Wills – Looking at the order of battle for Wilson’s creek again, both the general and brigade commanders all have a rating of 8, so if I have a unit in line formation with no modifiers, no roads, no difficult terrain, and I do a command roll resulting in 5, thats 3 less than 8 so I get 3 moves so I could move straight forward for 36″ (or 36cm in Epic). Now if that unit is in March Column, it only has a modifier of +1 for being in column right? Taking the commanders rating to 9, so lets say I roll a 6 or less, that is still 3 moves I am getting so I can still only move 36″/36cm? So I can’t see why I would bring my troops on in March Column where at some stage I have to use a move to change formation. Does that makse sense? The only time where I can see and advantage (from reading the difficult terrain rules) is if I have a unit moving along a road with difficult terrain either side, which would make a line formation move at half pace, so moving in column would make sense. So the next question would be, is all the battlefield classed as difficult terrain except otherwise noted? I,e; roads, woods or impassable terrain? It basically says that difficult terrain is scrub, sand, heavily plough soil, which could practically mean the whole of the american land, lol.

    As for the artillery, I can see the artillery ranges on pg 45 of the core rules, but no mention of points and some of the types of artillery are not listed. But on pg 45 of the GH supplement all artillery is listed 🙂 but no pts, however when I look at pg 79 for the Eastern Theatre of the GH Supplement it does give me pts values so I think I can come up with something there.

    Just as an example of what I am looking at Pg 18 of the Epic booklet, Battle of Wilson’s Creek, looking at the order of battle under the Union army, the 4th Brigade has 1 artillery unit of 12pdr howitzers (6 guns). On pg 13 the 12pdrs are not listed on the range table, so how do I know what range they can fire at, so I think I would just go by the 40″ in teh GH supplement? On pg 14 they are also not listed for their stats, so how strong are they, what is their morale etc? So I look at Pg 45 of the core rules, again, not listed on the range table. So finally I look at pg 45 of the GH supplement and see them listed at Range 40″ but I still have no other stats. So now I think why on earth would you list something in the order of battle and not have it’s stats listed in the Epic Battles Regiment Stats table? At first I thought I may be trying to do a literal conversion of every weapon and I shouldn’t be, and that the aim of Epic was to keep things simple, so just treat the 12pdrs as 6pdrs using the stats on the Epic Battles Regiment Stats table, BUT, on that table the last entry is  Artillery – 6 gun – 3 stands – 6pdr smoothbore. So it IS telling me that it is a 6 pdr, so where are the stats for the 12pdr?

    Here is the range table on Pg 13 of the Epic booklet;

    Shotgun, Pistol 6″

    Smoothbore musket 18″

    Rifled musket, breech loading rifle, repeating or magazine-fed rifle 24″

    Smoothbore carbine 12″

    Rifled Carbine, breech loading carbine, repeating or magazine fed carbine 18″

    6 pdr smoorthbore artillery 36″

     

    Here is part of the Epic Battles Regiment Stats table (artillery only)

    Artillery – 4 gun – 2 stands – 6 pdr smoothbore

    Artillery – 4 gun – 3 stands – 6 pdr smoothbore

    Now here is the order of battle for Wilson’s Creek on pg 19 Epic booklet

    Brigadier General Nataniel Lyon

    1st Brigade – 3 x Infantry, 1 x Artillery (6pdr smoothbore, 6 guns)

    2nd Brigade – 3 x infantry, 1 x Artillery (6pdr smoothbore, 6 guns)

    3rd Brigade – 6 x Infantry

    4th Brigade – 4 x Infantry, 1 x Cavalry (rifled carbine, tiny), 1 x Artillery (12 pdr howitzer, 6 guns)

    As you can see the 12pdrs are not on either of those tables? So now I have to go to the GH supplement to get the stats. There are two lines of teh GH supplement for 12pdrs, one has a (6) next to it so I presume this is the 6 gun entry I am looking for.

     

    @Big AI – Interesting point about the scale, someone mentioned about the number of stands in Epic ACW on FB page saying something similar that they are reducing a standard sized regiment to 3 instead of 5 which sounds reasonable because if you look at the largest battle in the Epic booklet “Battle of Salem Church” the Union infantry alone totals 155 stands, lol, that is mad!!!

    Anyway, I really really apreciate the time and effort you guys have put into your replies, I know it can be a pain explaining something over a forum. But when you don’t know anyone personally who plays I can only ask on line.

    I think for now I will concentrate on the scenarios or just use balanced forces for quick pick up games and worry about a pts system later. I definitely won’t be giving up on teh game though as I have invested quite a sum in it, lol. And I love the whole idea of the command system. Looking forward to teh Napoleonics coming out next year as well. Hopefully they will do an AWI one after that, lol.

    • This reply was modified 6 months ago by Mick.
    #186980
    Mick
    Participant

    Thanks for the replies, they have given me a greater understanding.

    @Big AI – I don’t think it’s to do with not reading the rules fully it’s more to do how I interpret them and that along side the fact that this is a new game system it’s just not what I am used to. The only rank and file game systems I have played were Warhammer Fantasy and GW’s Warmaster, and over 20 years ago, so this whole command and move system is new to me. While the fundamentals are all there, move, shoot, hand to hand, break tests are very similar some aspects are not what I am expecting.

    With the March Column I think I was expecting some extra few inches on movement or something especially when moving along a road, but there is none. I was expecting something along the lines of if I have an infantry unit moving down a road in line formation with difficult terrain either side it would hinder movement, so I would keep it in a column formation to keep the unit moving at full speed.

    And your response is not patronising, any information is good information if it helps me get to grips with the game 🙂

    I will have to beg to differ on the speed of different formations though, being ex-military I know this for a fact. For example if we were on a forced march to a location your are tightly packed and easy to coordinate, but then if you were on an alerted patrol you would be more spaced out in somes cases the end chap would not be able to see the chap at the front so communication would take that little bit longer as each instruction would have to be relayed person to person. Then if you were setting up in a defensive posion or getting ready for an assault you would be in the equivalent line formation with the section leader running alnog the line giving you your firing arcs or teliing you what you are attacking. Don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t always the same but the basic principles are there.

    @Charge The Guns – After re-reading the Command section I think I have got to grips with it, but again, all it’s doing is giving me an advantage on the command roll, and not so much the movement itself, so I would still say I am better off just moving in line formation from the get go, that way I don’t have to waste movements doing formation changes. Have you got an example of how moving in March Column is advanatagious?

    I swear I must be reading this wrong. Let’s say I have a Commander rating of 8, I have a unit already in Line Formation, with an enemy say….55″ away (Obviously not Epic ACW scale). I want to move within firing range (Smoothbore Musket 18″), I would need 3 moves to do this, and therefore I need to roll a 5 or less on my commander roll to get my 3 moves correct? If successful I get to move 3 lots of 12″, bringing me into firing range. Now if my unit was in MC formation I need those 3 moves, 1 to change formation and 2 to move closer and even then I won’t be in range to shoot (1″ short). So apart from giving a modifier on the commander roll there seems to be no plus side to MC. It seems I may as well just deploy everything in Line from the begining of the battle and if I am worried about command range then I just put each unit in line formation one behind the other to keep spacing down, then as I approach the enemy I start fanning out.

     

    As for the pts system, yeah I still a little gutted that there isn’t more structure to it. In most games even in their prebuilt scenarios you will get a variety, so you might have one that the sides are even, then you might get some where one side has an advantage. Bolt Action for example has the Theatre selectors and you choose a points limit but are free to choose your force. Adeptus Tianicus you might have a scenario where one players starts with 1000 pts more than the other. So I guess I was expecting something similar in BP. While historical scenarios are great but how many times do you play them? The BP Core book has 2 ACW, the GH supplement has 10 and the Epic supplement has 5, 4 of which are in the GH supplement with a slight variation on forces. But lets be positive and say there is 17 scenarios, so 34 if you play each one as both sides. I’m presuming you just use your imagination after that? What do you guys generally do for a pick up game if you play them? I was expecting to be able to go on my gaming FB page and ask anyone for a game, set a date sides and points value then just turn up. But if I want to do that then I need to work out points values of units, but then I need to make sure we are singing from the same system.

    Then there is the conversion from 28mm to Epic, wow, this is overwhelming! So….. using all 3 books, I think I have an understanding of the base and unit sizes. In the GH book pg 78 the first line on the forces table tells me that a unit of Smoothbore Musket Infantry costs 32pts, then I thought but how big is it? So going by the stamina of 2 and according the BP rulebook pg 18 it tells me that it is a small unit, am I reading that right? If this is correct that makes things simple, in Epic a small unit is 3 stands of infantry. But then I need to work out points for tiny or large units, 1 stand and 7 stands respectively. I’m not to keen on that pts per pip system, initially it seems that you could make overwhelminly powerful units and the pips for range is confusing, I mean, is that the range to shoot or is that line of sight range? Because I thought weapons had a specific range!

    On the conversion to Epic as well, even the scenarios don’t tell you what weaponry each unit had. The 2 scenarios in the BP core book tell me what units were at the battle, the size of the unit and what weapons they had, but in the Epic scenarios it just says the unit type and size, so I thought maybe all the weapons are the same just to keep it simple and keep gameplay fast, but then a few pages earlier it has a table of weapons and ranges, so how on earth do I know what weapons they have in the scenarios? Some artillery stats aren’t listed. The battle of Wilson’s Creek, the Union 4th Brigae has 1 Artillery unit of 12pdr Howitzers, where’s the stas for it? They are not on the table.

     

    Extremely frustrated, I really think I’m approaching this all wrong, especially the convesion to Epic :(, I think I need to see if anyone at my local club plays this so I can see a runt through from beginning to end.

    Wow, this is overwhelming

     

    #186454
    Mick
    Participant

    @ ENIOCH

    So I read the notes for S.H.I.P.S again and most of it seems simple enough, overall points over haul, easy enough. The carrier points and hanger points nice and simple. Got a couple of questions though, sorry..

    1.2.0 Second AA Rework – it mentions about the AA costs, I presume this cost is implemented into the base cost of the ship and not a seperate cost for AA?

    1.1.0 Release of MTBS ……….. – Can you confirm that the Shimmikaze has jumped right up to 175 pts to reflect the speed increase? 😮

    Not sure what the 3/3/4 refers to in the notes about the Fubuki, I thought it might mean either the AD or DD, but these are all 3/3/3 in both the book and stat cards.

    1.0.5 Hotfix for USN CAs – When you say statted with 8 secondaries, I presume you just mean the initially desription of the weapon (8×5 inch) as the AD  does say 6?

    1.0.0 AA Rework, Carrier Tweaking – I find this note a little confusing, when you talk about the price increase in AA etc, is this refering to Refit costs? So any gun with the Dual Purpose Trait, Local Trait and Physical increase in AA batteries is costing +5 points each, would that be correct?

    The last paragraph about carriers, you say it only provides 50% of an equivalent surface ships points, does this refer to victory points? And does this refer to map based or of map? And I presume this overides the next questions about Carrier Rework?

    0.9.0 Carrier Rework –  Again it mentions they only provide 80% of points, agin I presume this refers to victory points? I don’t know what it means when it refers to paying a points penalty? I thought it meant to do with a low base cost but then the more flight you carry it gets more expensive!

    Well as soon as I have a few I will add another sheet to mt excell spreadsheet with the re-adjusted S.H.I.P.S pts cost and add the aircraft as they used to be free. I’ll have to see if anyone at my local store are using this system if not I will have to see if they are prepared to as I can see alot of players favouring the WG version on USN fleets.

     

     

     

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by Mick.
    #186410
    Mick
    Participant

    Ar no that means I have to redo my fleet building lists in excell, lol, bummer. My KGV’s have gone up as well :(. Well I don’t get to play much but I will defo test this versus Warlords one. If alot of the community are using it then hopefully Warlord will release an errata or better yet a pack of stat cards of the already released ships. Before I opened that PDF I was half expecting a shed load of stat changes in which case I probably wouldn’t have used it.

    Not too sure I understand the whole carrier off the table hull percentage thingy, but I’ll read it a couple of times and see if that sticks in the brain.

    Thanks matey!!

    • This reply was modified 9 months ago by Mick.
    #186405
    Mick
    Participant

    Well thats abit sucky. Seems as though they either favour US ships as they have released far more of them or they just didn’t do any play testing, as a novice without even playing that list I think it would smash any other fleet. Have you got a link to any community ones?

    #186398
    Mick
    Participant

    Well if we are going date specific, I would have to radically change the fleet unless I proxy the aircraft. If I’m not proxying and we are sticking with 1943 I guess I would have to switch out the Alaska for the other two Northampton class cruisers. That puts me 2 pts over so I would either remove the radar refit on the Chester OR I could swap out one of the Yorktowns for the Essex. Just means I will have shed loads of Hellcats, lol. So I guess in the end I would just have one and use the rest of the points for a Portland and couple more destroyers.

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by Mick.
    #186386
    Mick
    Participant

    So I was curious about making an IJN and US carrier fleet and came up with this, based on models released and models I have (no proxies). And I was abit gobsmacked at what I came up with.

    IJN (1500 pts)

    Akagi (17 flights) 250pts

    Zuikaku (18 flights) 275pts

    Kumano 280pts

    Mogami + Radar refit 305pts

    5 x Fubuki Class Destroyer + refits to 1943 (radar) 350pts

    4 x Aichi D3A1 Val Dive Bomber 40 pts

    The 2 carriers are carrying a more or less even split of D3A1’s and Zero’s. I have 13 scouting dice of which 6 I could reroll.

    US (1500 pts)

    USS Enterprise (24 flights) 280pts

    USS Hornet (24 flights) 280pts

    USS Alaska 250pts

    USS Chester + 1940 Radar refit + 1941 refit 145pts (I had 5 pts left so just spent it on the extra refit)

    USS Indianapolis + 1942 Radar refit 155pts

    6 x Fletcher class destroyer 360pts

    6 x Fletcher 1942 refit -30pts

    6 x Fletcher 1942 refit -90pts

    6 x Fletcher 1943 Advanced Radar refit 30pts

    The 2 carriers are carrying an even split of Corsairs and Hellcats. I have 21 scouting dice of which 8 could be re-rolled.

    Now obviously I have played these fleets yet, but unless my figures are wrong and just off face value I think the US would smash the IJN fleet. I mean they out number the Japanese in carrier aircraft by 9 flights. They out number them in ships, I mean the Alask has more than twice the number of hull points as a Mogami, longer range. The Chester and Indianapolis have slightly less hull points and slightly less firepower. The Fubuki’s seem better destroyers than teh Fletchers, but there are only 5 v 6 for the US.

     

    @Nat – Would you se your own IJN fleet against the above US fleet? Or have you come across something similar? And use the same tactics you have mention previously?

     

    #186385
    Mick
    Participant

    After reading your post I checked out the AA capabilities of a few of the ships from each nation, and swamping a ship seems wise as only a couple have range bands and most of the rest have Local 1 with only a few with 2+.

    I’m currently solo gaming until my British fleet is fully painted so I reckon I will just practice with various styles of leets from all nations and see which playstyle I prefer. I was actually thinking of putting teh HMS Eagle in my list above but until I see the planes in action and see what they can do I’ll leave it out. It seems alot of points for only a 3rd of the aircraft from the Ark Royal. With teh game plays I have seen though I’m getting the feeling the British with be a heavy ship fleet (BB’s and Cruisers) and if I can put an aircraft carrier in just to menace the opposition, unless I can come up witha fleet with loads of AA, lol.

     

    #186384
    Mick
    Participant

    I think I will just stick with what is on the cards/book and append when an errata corrects it.

    #186376
    Mick
    Participant

    Hi, yeah I was aware the refits are cumalative, thanks for the reply though Nat :), it was just the commisioned date, while it does make more sense now what Enioch said, although I think I would have just preferred it if Warlord had put the date it was commisioned on the model as opposed to the date it had a refit.

    I did still came across a couple of errors though after going through all the ships released so far and if the date on the card is when the class was first commisioned.

    British Leander Class ; Data card says commisioned in 1932 but the first Leander cruiser was commisioned in 1933

    IJN Mogami Class ; Data card says commisioned in 1937, but 2 were actually completed in 1935 and 2 in 1937, note I say completed though, so I’m not 100% on whether that  actually means commissioned.

     

    Back onto refits though, 4 of the Tribal ones confused me until I realized the 4th one was a combination of the 1st and 3rd one and I think there MAY have been a misprint which is what threw me out. Originally when I was fleet building I didn’t really pay attention to detroyers and had the mindset of bigger is better, but after the advice from you guys gave me in my other post about carriers I went for a balance. Looking at the Tribal it doesn’t come with Radar. I won’t re-write ALL the ship names and refits but I will note the ones that stuck out.

    1940 (Eskimo, + 4 more ships) Decrease Light Guns and add Light Guns etc +5pts (1 refit)

    1940 (Cossack) Add Radar, Decrease Light Guns and add Light Guns etc +10 pts (2 refits)

    1941 (Eskimo, + 4 more ships) Add Radar +5pts (1 refit)

    1941 (2 ships, Eskimo, + 6 more ships) Add Radar, decrease Light Guns and add Light Guns etc +10 pts (2 refits)

    As I wasn’t actually looking at the names of the ships, I was adding up the refits 1940, then the second 1940, until I finally got to my Radar one in 1941, in total the destroyer cost me 5 pts and I was thinking how the hell are these guys getting 6-7+ destroyers, lol.

    Then when I looked at the second 1941 refit it actually just combines the Eskmo’s 1940 and 1941 refits into one refit for a total of +10pts, lol. Yeah yeah don’t laugh!

     

     

     

     

    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by Mick.
    • This reply was modified 9 months, 1 week ago by Mick.
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