Math Issue with Points System

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  • #183126
    George
    Participant

    Hello,

    I was looking of a previous post that included two images from BP 1st edition that is of a point system for building an army. I like this a lot and would like to use it in the future when I create drop down games.

    However I don’t understand something:

    An infantry unit is…

    1 point for each hand-to-hand rating

    1 point for each shooting rating if 12″ range

    4 points for each morale rating

    4 points for each stamina rating

     

    So, the example gives a tiny unit with 1 point h-t-h, 1 point shooting, 4 points morale and 1 point of stamina. Okay when I add that up it comes to 22 points (1 point h-t-h + 1 point shooting + 16 points morale (4 x4), and 4 points stamina (1 x 4) = 22 points)

    However the example says it’s worth 19 points. Where do I lose 3 points? is it because it is tiny? I really wish they kept this points system from first edition in 2nd edition.

    Also, how many points for leaders?

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    #183129
    Big Al
    Participant

    Yes, you count the morale save backwards from 6. A 6+ save is 4 points, a 5+ save is 8points and so on. The other thing you have failed to notice is the points for the range of the weapon. In the example, the unit has a smooth ore musket, which has a range of 18 inches. That is 2 points.
    So 1 point HtH, 2 points shooting, 12 points morale save of 4+ and 4 points for stamina of 1 =19 points.

    Or you do like most of us and just play scenarios and not use points. The points system was a “tack on” later as the rules were not intended to be used with points but with scenarios instead. This is why they were left out of BP2.

    +1
    #183132
    Nat
    Participant

    its also worth noting that [in the Napoleonic supplements] army special rules arent pointed either!  Nor is movement (except for alteration against the norm – such as  for example from Clash of Eagles Austrian Horse artillery who do gets a points discount)

    The points can only be viewed as a guide to help you build approximately similar sized armies…. which is one reason why this game will never be a competitive one and should be used as a rules framework not RAW.

     

    EDIT – As per Al’s point below, ive clarified where I’m coming from in Italics.

    +1
    #183134
    Garry Wills
    Participant

    The special rules do have point values. i posted them separately

    +1
    #183138
    Nat
    Participant

    I said army special rules…. such as Deep Line for British, lacking initiative, the Russian “bullet is a fool bayonet is a fine chap one”,…. oh and a few unit special rules such as skirmisher or the french dragoons ability to deploy dismounted, doesnt have a points value.

     

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Nat.
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    #183140
    Big Al
    Participant

    Nat, please don’t mention things that are in the supplements without clarifying that that is where they come from. It confuses the new players who have only the rulebook to go by and will have them searching through looking for it.

    The main reason that the game is not a competition game is not because of the points system. As mentioned, points are available, although they were not repeated in BP2.

    The reason it will never really be a competition game is the random Command Phase and the way order’s are issued and the way the rules like to deal with things in a “Gentlemanly manner” when it comes to settling disputes. The rules are too open to interpretation, which is why the supplements have so many suggested alternatives, which a player may adopt or not, as each wishes.

    +1
    #183142
    Nat
    Participant

    Al – fair point on the supplements (i’ve edit my post now!)

    However which way you look at it, we do agree that BP isnt a competative game and shouldnt be played as such….

    +1
    #183162
    George
    Participant

    Thanks Big Al,

    so a unit with a morale save 6+ is 4 points, 5+ is 8 points, 4+ is 12 points, and (going theoretically lower) 3+ is 16 points, and 2+ is 24 points. So do I understand that correctly now?

    Also, again, what about leaders? Do they cost points? How are they calculated.

    I agree with you that the game is for friendly enjoyment and not competitive. However, that said, I want to design scenarios when my friends play with me that are evenly matched, but not exactly the same. Hence why I favor the points.

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    #183166
    Big Al
    Participant

    I’m not aware of how the points work for Commanders. I don’t use points, so don’t know. I can take a look in the supplements later to see how they’ve handled them. Maybe the Hail Caesar army lists will give a clue as there are quite a few pointed armies in those.

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    #183171
    Nat
    Participant

    From the Napoleonic supplements:The default is 0 points for a Staff rating of 7, 25 for 8 and 75 points for staff rating 9.

     

    staff rating 10 is reserved for special characters,  some nations have lower costs such as the Russians pay 20 points for SR 8 (to a max of 50% commanders) and can’t have 9, then the old guard list pay 35 for SR8 & 70 for SR9.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Nat.
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    #183173
    Big Al
    Participant

    Nice one, Nat. I was just about to look it up as I’ve just got back home from work.

    +1
    #183176
    George
    Participant

    Thank you Nat, that was very helpful.

    So, tell me about leaders with unwelcome staff ratings like 6 and 5. Can those be a deduction from your points? Is there a table to where you have to roll to take on an incompetent leader?

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    #183177
    Big Al
    Participant

    As I said before, look at the section on Commanders in the BP2 rulebook. There is a small table there that you can roll against that gives your Commanders traits. These may be positive or negative and each has an instruction on how he will act.

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    #183181
    Nat
    Participant

    I wouldnt use a staff rating of lower than 7 outside of the personality traits table because 7 is the average roll of 2D6.  Which when you start using rules like unreliable or units over 12″ from commander you then end up not having any control over the unit and it does nothing more often than not.  So whilst it may be historically accurate game wise its a waste of game-time in my opinion.

    The clash of eagles supplement has rules for Russian and Austrian armies, both known for the incompetence of their generals… and they dont have lower than a 7 or higher than 8, instead  they have rules limiting to how many units a brigade commander can order in one go so as to brake up the cohesion of the brigade but still be playable.

    +1
    #183182
    Big Al
    Participant

    I’m with you on avoiding command levels lower than 7 but those with such low command levels need to get off their backsides and move closer to the troops they are giving orders to!

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