Agile trait – rules check

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  • #171958
    Bob D
    Participant

    I just want to check that I understand the rules correctly for Agile aircraft; my apologies if this has been asked before.

    With reference to page 10 of the Expanded Rules book and the Agile trait card, I am confused by the wording in the rules (“aeroplanes with the Agile trait are exempt from this rule”) versus that on the Agile trait card, which is not marked as an always-in-play Positive Trait, and can only be played during the plane’s own activation (and not as a reaction). So…

    (1) am I correct in thinking that cases 1 (re manoeuvring) and 3 (re dodging) are *always* ignored for agile multi-engined aircraft, but the others can only be ignored by an individual agile plane after that aircraft has activated and played an Agile trait card on itself? e.g. Before an Me 110 or Mossie has activated on a given turn, case 2 states that it may be shot at regardless of relative advantage state but, after it activates and plays the Agile card on itself, it can only be shot at for the rest of that turn by aircraft with a superior Advantage state. It seems a bit odd, but is that right?

    (2) The Agile trait card states that, when the card is played, the aircraft “suffers none of the multi-engine aircraft penalties this turn”. If cases 1 and 3 always apply anyway, which of the others are cancelled by play of the Agile trait card? Case 2 I can understand, but what about the others? Cases 4 (hits reduce Advantage state but do not cause Boom hits) and 6 (reduce speed and defensive firepower when damaged) might be candidates, but it would not seem right to cancel them…

    OR, have I got this totally wrong, and cases 1 and 3 on page 10 of the rules are only cancelled by actual play of the Agile trait card (hence apply before the plane activates) and the others, such as case 2, are never cancelled? If so, the I find wording on the trait card and in the rules a bit misleading.

    (3) Re card management, if I am playing with six Me 110s, I will have two cards each in the Action Deck for Great Dive, Heavy Hitter and Agile, plus whatever Doctrine and Theatre cards are used. Since the Agile trait card is ‘Auto’ returned to the player’s hand when it is played, am I correct in thinking that the only way that you will not have an Agile trait card in your hand is (a) if one does not appear in your initial card draw at the start of the game, or (b) if you deliberately discard it at some point afterwards?

    (4) Lastly, should Agile planes lose their Agile benefits while carrying bombs? In which case, am I playing correctly that the Agile trait cards may be cycling through Action Deck, the player’s hand and the discard pile, but cannot actually be played until an Agile aircraft drops its bombs?

    Cheers

    –Bob

    • This topic was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Bob D.
    • This topic was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Bob D.
    • This topic was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Bob D.
    • This topic was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Bob D.
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    #171963
    Nat
    Participant

    Agile is now a green lined all ways in play positive trait.

    from the FAQ
    Q: Is the Agile Positive Trait card for multi engine aircraft placed into the Action deck like other trait cards?

    A: No, just like Negative Trait cards (Red Cards) Positive trait cards like Agile are in play all the time

    Also from the FAQ
    Multi-engine aircraft

    Q: Can Multi Engine Aircraft gain advantage?

    A: Yes, the restriction one climbing for advantage only applies to aircraft carrying a payload of bombs. Once the payload has been dropped then they act like any Multi Engine Aircraft and can climb for advantage.
    —————————————————————————————————————————
    Q: When do Multi Engine Aircraft get damaged?

    A: REMEMBER: A shooting attack can be conducted against a Multi Engine Aircraft regardless of its advantage level relative to the shooter (Para 2 Page 10 Expanded Rules).

    A multi engine that is shot at, hit and fails to dodge loses advantage levels until they get to disadvantaged, but no Boom chits are generated. Hits while disadvantaged start to place boom chits directly on the aircraft itself. Each boom chit reduces Speed and turret firepower by one, also damaged multi engine planes can no longer be Advantaged (i.e. they might climb back up to neutral but no further). Once the number of boom chits equals the number of engines it has, the multi engine plane crashes, generating another boom chit. (E.g. an Advantaged twin engine bomber would go through these stages – Advantaged – Neutral – Disadvantaged – 2 x Engines – Crash)

    —————————————————————————————————————————
    Q: How do boom chits work for multi-engine squadrons?

    When a multi engine plane is shot down all of its boom chits are then transferred to the multi-engine’s squadron plus one boom chit for being shot down. If the number of Boom chits on the squadron ever exceeds its number of remaining engines the squadron will break off and turn for home.

    Example: A three strong squadron twin engine Do17s has one aircraft shot down placing three Boom chits on the squadron – it still has four engines remaining so they carry on. Later another Do17 takes damage but the squadron still carries on as it has three engines remaining and three Boom chits. The damaged Do17 is then shot down, placing three more Boom chits on the squadron so this forces the last Do17 in the squadron to give up and head home.

    —————————————————————————————————————————
    Q: When and how does a Multi Engine Aircraft with turrets lose firepower?

    A: When a multi engine aircraft starts to take boom chits on it directly it loses 1” (50mph) of movement and loses 1 Firepower dice from turrets for each boom chit accumulated (Para 6 Page 10 Expanded Rules).
    —————————————————————————————————————————
    Q: Can a damaged Multi Engine Aircraft still Climb for Advantage? If it is Agile can it still outmanoeuvre?

    A: Yes (but it can no longer be Advantaged, so up to Neutral at best), and yes.
    —————————————————————————————————————————
    Q: Does a Multi Engine Aircraft that has crashed get another boom chit?

    A: Yes.
    —————————————————————————————————————————
    Q: How does the Deep Pockets trait work with multi engine aircraft?
    A: Deep Pockets is played as a reaction when the squadron receives a Boom chit so the same rules apply as usual. It cannot be played to prevent a Boom chit being placed on a multi-engine aircraft to denote damage. In effect Deep Pockets only kicks in for a multi-engine squadron when a member of the squadron is shot down and the Boom chits it’s carrying (i.e. no. of engines + one for being shot down) is transferred onto the squadron

    Does that help?

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by Nat.
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    #171993
    Bob D
    Participant

    Hi Nat

    yeah that helps a lot – thanks. I had not seen that Agile is now a green lined always in play positive trait: that makes a lot more sense.

    So, does that mean that the Agile trait card simply re-states points 1 and 3 on page 10 (which say that agile aircraft are exempt from those cases), and no more than that?

    Very specifically, meaning that item 2 (a shooting attack can be conducted against a Multi Engine Aircraft regardless of its advantage level relative to the shooter) ALWAYS applies, regardless of the Agile card or trait? That is the way I had initially read it, but I got myself increasingly confused the more times I read page 10 and the text on the card!

    Cheers

    –Bob

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks ago by Bob D.
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    #172000
    Nat
    Participant

    That’s the way I read (and play it) yes

    The fact that you can always shoot a (for example) mossier is balanced by the fact that it only takes boom chits when disadvantaged and can make a ‘dodge’ attempt to prevent losing a level before that.

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    #172001
    Bob D
    Participant

    Perfect – thanks Nat.

    Yeah that’s a good point actually about being easy to shoot at, but having the compensation of not taking boom chits until disadvantaged.

    I love the Bf-110 models: it has been one of my favourite WW2 planes since I was a kid (along with the He-219)

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks ago by Bob D.
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    #172130
    Steve Burt
    Participant

    The other thing about agile multi-engine planes which I had missed is that once disadvantaged they don’t get to dodge any more – they just take boom chits when hit.

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    #172154
    Bob D
    Participant

    Hi Steve

    I don’t see anything in the rules that says that – and it does not sound right.

    Paragraph 4 on page 10 of the Expanded Rules says that Boom chits are not generated until the multi-engine plane is Disadvantaged; but it does say that “when a multi-engine aeroplane is already Disadvantaged, and it is hit by shooting … place the Boom chit…” – the key point being “when it is hit”, and the plane can try to dodge whatever it’s advantage level…. surely?

    Cheers

    –Bob

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    #172177
    Steve Burt
    Participant

    It’s from the latest FAQ, as clarified by Andy Chambers on the Facebook group:
    Q: When do Multi Engine Aircraft get damaged?
    A: REMEMBER: A shooting attack can be conducted against a Multi Engine Aircraft regardless of its advantage level relative to the shooter (Para 2 Page 10 Expanded Rules).
    A multi engine that is shot at, hit and fails to dodge loses advantage levels until they get to disadvantaged, but no Boom chits are generated. Hits while disadvantaged start to place
    boom chits directly on the aircraft itself. Each boom chit reduces Speed and turret firepower by one, also damaged multi engine planes can no longer be Advantaged (i.e. they might climb back up to neutral but no further). Once the number of boom chits equals the number of engines it has, the multi engine plane crashes, generating another boom chit. (E.g. an
    Advantaged twin engine bomber would go through these stages – Advantaged – Neutral – Disadvantaged – 2 x Engines – Crash)

    Andy’s clarification:
    Yes the change in wording was/is deliberate, if you’re hit by shooting while disadvantaged in a multi you take damage. I think there are some Ace skills that can wheedle you out of taking damage in a disadvantaged multi but a normal dodge won’t do it.

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    #172250
    Bob D
    Participant

    Hi Steve

    Ouch! I hadn’t seen that: thanks for pointing it out.

    Cheers

    —Bob

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