Disposable Heroes Bloodiness

[Moosehead]

Ok so i wanna give a go to disposable heroes since i have the rules. However people who play them have stated that its too bloody and dosent make for effective tactics like suppress, close in and destroy. They say the ranges are too long for weapons so you can kill troops from all over. For those who have actually played the game is this true. Does disposable heroes actually model tactics well.

[pbeccas]

Hi Moosehead. Whoever told you that has not played a game. The rules revolve around fire and movement. One team lays down fire to suppress, the second team moves. If your not using suppressive fire you will get wiped out. Sounds like that happened to your friend. Ranges of weapons are as normal as any 28mm game I have played. Your using D10's. Rolling low your looking at a kill 3 or less to kill a target in the open. 30% odds. Add cover your looking at a 1 to kill. 10% odds.
Give it a try. Have read below for rule summary.

"The game is based around the platoon (or one platoon per player for multi-platoon games). The game begins with a roll for initiative where both players add their highest ranking Commander's Guts (leadership) score. The highest roll decides if they want to go first or allow his opponent to go first.The game turn sequence is a series of alternating unit activations.

During a players activation, he selects one unit to activate. That unit will act together (as a unit) and can move and fire, fire and move, or engage in close combat. The movement rates and distance you can shoot is determined by how far you move. For example, if you maneuver (6"), your firing is done at half the ROF and half range (some weapons, such as SMGs aren't affected by this). When a unit has activated you place a yellow counter next to it to indicate it has gone.

When you do fire, only half of the unit fires, but what models shoot is up to you (so you may choose to shoot the SMG and the LMG in the unit. This is important, and it is to represent that at any given time in action, not everyone is always firing their weapons. Simply put, in WWII, units did not fire to 100% efficiency. They were not firing squads. Some guys are firing, some loading, others observing or keeping their heads down etc. When you fire, you roll a number of D10 based on the weapons firing (their ROF) and your to hit is based on your Accuracy score (which is almost always 5). Cover modifies this down (you want to roll low). The type of cover determines by how much the ACC is lowered. Heavy cover has a -4, for example. Once you determine hits, you roll for wounds based on the AP (anti-personell) of the weapon. The player who's unit was fired upon chooses which casualties are removed. This way a unit can keep the squad weapons in action (representing assistants taking over etc.). There is a rule to allow leaders and special weapons to be removed though.

Movement distances are not modified by terrain. And cover has a nice abstraction to it: if one model in a unit can make it into the cover, the whole unit is pulled in and gets the benefit of cover. LOS is also done by cover. If you can draw LOS to the cover a unit is in, you can fire at the unit. No more drawing LOS to individual models (which are static and lifeless compared to real soldiers-who actively take cover).

There is a defensive "snap fire". A unit may snap fire at an enemy unit who moves within 12" of them, making units defensive in close so that you can't simply waltz in front of the enemy expecting them not to react.

Close combat is point blank and brutal. Once engaged, units will fight until one side is wiped out (surrenders, etc.). You have to make a Gut check to charge in and nearby units for both sides may sometimes be pulled in. If you are pinned when you get charged, you always fight last, meaning the units that pins the enemy then maneuvers into position to take them out will be sucessful rewarding realistic tactics.

Gut checks (morale) are taken every time a unit takes fire, regardless of the casualties. Casualties cause a -1 for each one inflicted and whatever various weapon morale modifiers (MM) apply (LMGs for example, cause a -2 MM). Also, cover modifies this back up. Meaning units in cover will negate some of the above negatives (but will only ever cancel them out, they won't take the units morale higher than it would be naturally. You can also use nearby leaders to bolster your morale (if they are within command radius-ie within their Guts score in inches away). So keeping your Lieutenant around is useful...they can also auto rally units as part of the commanders Activation. When units fail their Gut checks, they are pinned (activating them if they aren't already). Once pinned they must rally as part of their activation to act again. If a unit is pinned twice, they get pushed back 6" away. If they get pinned three times it is 9". So you can push the enemy out of positions.

Vehicles and AT guns etc. act somewhat like infantry (they activate the same way) and they have various movement rates. The big difference is that vehicles have to acquire their target before they can fire on it (meaning they are not "point and click" fire breathing monsters). Acquiring is a little like firing but with different modifiers. Once a vehicle acquires its target it can shoot at it. This represents several things: one, a vehicle is a crew of multiple individuals who must coordinate their activities. Two, it also represents the vulnerability of vehicles in close in terrain against infantry (who are much more mobile and can fire at them without hidnrance). Three, it means vehicles have incentive to maneuver for that nice shot. Once you become acquired, it often means you have to decide whether to slug it out or redeploy for a better shot. You will find vehicles actually MOVE in this game. No parking hub to hub and shooting it out like a battery of guns.

There are rules for lots of other things as well. Hidden units, setting up trip wires for heavy weapons (along which you can snap fire or ambush units who cross over-great for AT guns).There are rules for indirect firing and artillery, snipers, air attacks, off board artillery, para drops, etc. etc. Lots of things to give you the complete small unit skirmish package.

Overall, DH is a small unit skirmish game centered around the platoon. You essentially play the role of the platoon commander. You will be making platoon commander level decisions. You will be maneuvering and fighting with half sections or teams abiding by the "two steps down rule". This means that the platoon commander worries about what his squads and half squads are doing, and less about what individuals are doing (though of course, the individuals are important as to what weapons fire, etc. etc.). You will NOT be making individual combat decisions such as: "Private Snuffy goes prone and fires three shots from his Garand. That works for individual skirmish games, whereas DH is small unit action. This is a game where you can put a full platoon and support and vehicles on the table and play a game to conclusion in an hour (once familiar with the rules of course).You will find that the game plays fast, rewards real tactics, and is fun. You will pick up the basics within minutes of playing. If you accept that DH is not as detailed down to the individual level, you will find that DH is detailed at the platoon tactical level, but also that some important things are abstracted to achieve realism in results. It is a system dedicated to realistic results, not realism in process."

[Big Al]

The thing people tend not to like about DH is the abstract nature of the rules. Generally, if half the unit makes it over a wall then the whole unit is considered to have made it. However, you don't have to do it that way. You can count those left in the open as where they actually are.

With regard to the bloody nature, what else do people expect if you stand in an area sprayed with bullets? There are no saves, which was the situation in real life WW2 battles. People hit by bullets tended to go down. What actually happens is that the cover is dealt with when you are trying to hit, which negates the need for saving rolls.I suspect that the people who complain that it is too bloody do so because they are used to rules that give saving rolls to the figures that have been hit.

In order to shoot at an enemy, a unit has a basic chance of 5 on a D10. Then there are modifiers subtracted for cover, which differs by the type, as well as for firing across linear obstacles and so on. The range of a rifle is 24 inches and a LMG is 48 inches. A sub machine gun is 15 inches. How do these sound too long? A bow and arrow in Hail Caesar is a similar range to the rifle!

Whenever a unit is targeted and fired upon, it has to take a morale test. If a leader is close enough, it's Guts characteristic can be used. The test result is modified by the Morale Modifier of the weapon, any casualties and the cover value. If the test is failed the unit becomes pinned. If it is pinned before the unit has been activated that turn, then it loses it's activation for that turn. In the following turn, a pinned unit has to test to remove the pin and if successful, may activate as normal. Any destroyed or pinned units are subtracted from the Guts of the leader when rolling for initiative at the beginning of each turn.

The Command and Control element of the game is excellent and the game effects are good. The vehicle rules are superb! The game moves quickly and gives a very real feel for the action. It is also very well supported by the authors on a Yahoo Group.

[Big Al]

Ok, I didn't go into as much detail as Paul, but you can see that we are both saying the same thing. I don't play against Paul because he's on the other side of the world from me

Paul's right that whoever told you about the game hasn't played it or hasn't played it properly. Everyone I know who has played DH has enjoyed it and always come back for more.

[pbeccas]

Al lives on the wrong side of the world so we can't play.

[Moosehead]

Thanks everyone. I want to like the rules so thats why im asking questions.

Someone said basically there is not much manouver if you are playing with 25s on a 4 by 6 table. Basically the game starts and most everyone can start shooting.

Also DH employes a unit by unit IGO, UGO. It reminds me of playing chess. DH has a feature called snap fire (opportunity fire) which can only be employed by certain types of units at relatively close range. This "snap fire" does not impair the ability of the unit to fire when it is doing "it's turn", so a unit can shoot quite a lot more under certain circumstances than it could otherwise. Players alternate moving/shooting one unit at a time until one player has used up all of his units. Then the other player gets to move/shoot all of his remaining units while his opponent grins and bears it.

Troop movement is painfully slow when compared to weapons ranges. Unless you are engaged in urban combat or on a table with lot's of terrain, it is unlikely you will see a lot of infantry movement. Armor movement relative to infantry movement can be up to twice as fast. DH imposes impediments to fire and cover based on speed of movement similar to those described above.

DH infantry fire is whithering. There is a reason that only half the figures in DH are allowed to fire and it isn't the one offered by the designers. If all the figures got to fire no one would play the game because it is just way too effective. Even at 50% it is still way too effective. In DH, all things being equal, he who shoots first is going to win the vast majority of the time. Weapons ranges are much longer in DH and movement much less. Unless you have a huge table, you will not be moving very far from where your unit starts unless that movement is behind some kind of cover (that will prevent you from shooting too).

Are the above statements correct or misinformed. I like to verify as just because one person states something does not make it a fact. And id like to give Disposable Heroes a fair shake.Ultimately ill have to play them myself to get a proper feel, I was just looking for some feedback based on what has been said from an opposing view of those that like the rules.

[Sirius]

Someone said basically there is not much manouver if you are playing with 25s on a 4 by 6 table. Basically the game starts and most everyone can start shooting.

...Unless you are engaged in urban combat or on a table with lot's of terrain, it is unlikely you will see a lot of infantry movement. Armor movement relative to infantry movement can be up to twice as fast. ...

I would be interested to hear what rulesets the naysayers are suggesting as alternates?

I dont play DH. But i do play other WW2 skirmish rules. And the same "problems" occur with all the rules: on a 6x4 table, most weapons are in range right at deployment and troops caught in the open will die. Its WW2. Weapons are deadly effective. And its a moment of contact with the enemy. Its unforgiving.

You do need lots of terrain on the table. Your tactics do need to exploit every bit of terrain. Mess up and your troops will be cut down.

I dont see these as disadvantages. For me, some of the things you describe as problems make for a dynamic and tense game.

I would suggest modelling some situations, rolling some dice to see how they play out. Give the game a try.

[Cubster]

I do think a good ruleset is one that rewards good, historically accurate tactics. This sounds like a culture shock from WH40K players trying to simply swap one game for another and trying to play the same way.

WH40K is a fantastical sci-fi game designed for fun with no preconceptions of accuracy.

A good WW2 skirmish game will force players to get into cover, plan their orders, use dead ground, maximise the effectiveness of their weapons and employ your fire-teams in a coordinated way. Failure to do so should result in an historically accurate result - ie. a lot of body bags filled with your guys.

The rules are just a mechanism that allows players to achieve realistic results. I imagine for a new player it must be disconcerting to be consistently out-played by someone who knows what they're doing, but a lot of junior officers probably went through similar processes before they learned how to do things right.

[Big Al]

Also DH employes a unit by unit IGO, UGO. It reminds me of playing chess. DH has a feature called snap fire (opportunity fire) which can only be employed by certain types of units at relatively close range. This "snap fire" does not impair the ability of the unit to fire when it is doing "it's turn", so a unit can shoot quite a lot more under certain circumstances than it could otherwise. Players alternate moving/shooting one unit at a time until one player has used up all of his units. Then the other player gets to move/shoot all of his remaining units while his opponent grins and bears it.

The IGO UGO system is a little chesslike, but it allows opponents to react to situations as they occur. It also allows for command and control. It sounds like you are a former 40k player, and being allowed to move all your units at once can give an unbalanced game. If one side moves everything without any reaction from the opponent, it is possible to wipe him away with no reply. An unrealistic outcome. Utilising the system in DH allows for actions to develop in a natural and realistic way.
The 'snap fire' is a little like Overwatch. However, if the unit has not been activated and fires it only hits on a 2+. If it has been activated then it hits on a 1+. Further, only one unit may use 'snap fire' in a turn, not every unit. Hardly increases the amount of shooting. No, it doesn't impair a unit's firing during it's activation. It is the 'snap fire' that gets the penalty, although there are no cover modifiers against any hits.

Troop movement is painfully slow when compared to weapons ranges. Unless you are engaged in urban combat or on a table with lot's of terrain, it is unlikely you will see a lot of infantry movement. Armor movement relative to infantry movement can be up to twice as fast. DH imposes impediments to fire and cover based on speed of movement similar to those described above.

That's because the troops, even when running, are considered to be moving in a low crouch. You do see a lot of infantry movement, but then, if you have a very open battlefield....would you want to run across it? You need to place plenty of cover, trees, hedges etc, otherwise the tabletop will be a killing ground and lead to a very unsatisfying game. Of course, vehicle movement can be up to twice as fast as infantry. Go out and keep up with a slow moving car.(sorry for the sarcasm ) There is nothing in the rules that says that you must move a vehicle, or any unit, the maximum distance for it's speed level. You just can't move further than that distance. If your infantry move 6 inches, you can move the tank they're hiding behind 6 inches of it's possible 10. And when you consider the speed of a bullet through the air, well, as far as I know, only superman will outrun it!

DH infantry fire is whithering. There is a reason that only half the figures in DH are allowed to fire and it isn't the one offered by the designers. If all the figures got to fire no one would play the game because it is just way too effective. Even at 50% it is still way too effective. In DH, all things being equal, he who shoots first is going to win the vast majority of the time. Weapons ranges are much longer in DH and movement much less. Unless you have a huge table, you will not be moving very far from where your unit starts unless that movement is behind some kind of cover (that will prevent you from shooting too).

Actually, the reason that only half the figures fire is given that not everyone in a unit is looking in the same direction. However, it seems to have escaped your notice that those figures that do fire actually fire two shots, not one. If you play any other games, like Rules of Engagement, everyone in the squad fires, but they only fire a single shot. So a ten man unit in either game fires ten shots, excluding sub machine guns or light machine guns. I have yet to see it happen where the person who shoots first wins. Each turn starts with an initiative roll, the winner of which starts the turn. So it is totally untrue that the first side to shoot wins the game. That is a trait of 40K.
A huge table is not necessary. I am a veteran D player of some 7 years and this has never been necessary. I almost always play on a 6x4 table and have had 3 or 4 tanks per side. My British army is a Carrier platoon which consists of 10 lovely BA Universal carriers and I have fielded this supported by an armoured car squadron of 2 Daimlers and an AEC without any problem whatsoever! Movement is fast and distances are covered quickly enough. My units almost always get halfway across the table, at least, during a game.

Are the above statements correct or misinformed. I like to verify as just because one person states something does not make it a fact. And id like to give Disposable Heroes a fair shake.Ultimately ill have to play them myself to get a proper feel, I was just looking for some feedback based on what has been said from an opposing view of those that like the rules.

I believe I have just debunked all the above statements. Just get out and play. As I said earlier, join the IronIvan yahoo group because you will get all your rules questions answered by the authors themselves as well as others like Paul and me. The people who have been feeding you the nonsense you have asked about haven't a clue what they're talking about and have never played the game. It is blindingly obvious to anyone who has. You have the rules, read them and play, you will soon realise that my last statement is 100% correct!

[pbeccas]

I play on 4 x 6 tables. Mostly desert games. (see my blog link below and hit the Disposable Heroes tab). Never had a problem as described. I don't use armour. I'm infantry. I think the best solution is to have a game and make up your own mind. Let us know how you go. I would be really interested.