Translating my WAB EIR into HC EIR

[chazaroo]

Hi all,
I own Game Empire, which is a game store in Pasadena, California. Before I opened the store I was a long time Warhammer Ancient Battles player. I just started to learn HC a few days ago, and we played our first test game today. I have an EIR army from my WAB days . Unfortunately, WAB appears to be dead, or nearly so, so my army has been sitting on the shelf for years. I like what I see in HC, but I'm confused about how I would modify my army to play under these rules. Set out below are a few questions:

1. My existing army is based on 15 man cohorts with a 5 man front and 3 ranks deep. I currently have 6 cohorts. My understanding is that in HC, they would need to be about 8 figs wide (assuming 20mm bases) and 2 deep. Is that correct? I have both the HC rulebook and the army book. I don't see an option for making small legionnaire units. This is odd in light of many of the diagrams in the book, like on pages 34 and 35, that show units maneuvering in units 5 wide and 3 deep.

2. What are my auxilia units in HC? From reading the lists I think they would be medium infantry. But there is an example on page 29 under Division Orders which talks about a division made up of legionnaires, auxilia and cav being given an order in which the auxilia adopt open order. But medium infantry cannot adopt open order unless they are required to move into rough terrain. In WAB my auxilia could go open order, but it appears they cannot in HC despite the example. Is this right?

3. In WAB the EIR army list allowed the player to purchase barbarian warbands as allies, like the Gauls. I don't see anything in the HC list that allows this. Is there someplace in the rules that talks about ally units from other lists?

I know that Rick Priestly has repeatedly stated that we can change whatever we want. However, as a game store owner who is looking to start carrying this game and the miniatures, my experience is that as soon as the rules get too flexible the game will collapse as it starts to get abused by our less fair-minded fellow gamers.

Thanks for any assistance.

[chazaroo]

Ok, I just noticed that there is an option for Auxilia light infantry. My bad. Please disregard question 2 above.

[Big Al]

Hi and welcome Chazaroo! Let's see what we can do.

1. My existing army is based on 15 man cohorts with a 5 man front and 3 ranks deep. I currently have 6 cohorts. My understanding is that in HC, they would need to be about 8 figs wide (assuming 20mm bases) and 2 deep. Is that correct? I have both the HC rulebook and the army book. I don't see an option for making small legionnaire units. This is odd in light of many of the diagrams in the book, like on pages 34 and 35, that show units maneuvering in units 5 wide and 3 deep.

The diagrams you mention are only drawn like that for illustration to show where the centre figure is in the units. They don't mean anything as regards to the size of the unit or it's formationThe formations that you have seen in the book are not different sized units, just a change in formation. If your unit was to form a Battle Line it would be 2 ranks deep and 8 figures wide. Don't worry about being one short, the rules are only concerned with units. If you want to order the unit into a narrower, deeper formation, then you would issue the formation change as part of the order you give to the unit. The chapter on Page 18 explains the various formation options.

Also, all the units in the photos were originally used for WAB and the WAB basing is suggested for use with HC. The only difference being that those starting a new army can base their figures in multiples of four and only have, six bases per unit. If you are using individually based figures, then just use movement trays to make life easier.

3. In WAB the EIR army list allowed the player to purchase barbarian warbands as allies, like the Gauls. I don't see anything in the HC list that allows this. Is there someplace in the rules that talks about ally units from other lists?

There isn't exactly. I am assuming that you have the list book. If you look at the Marian Roman list, it is mentioned, but not in the EIR list. The Romans tended to take thoseallies, train them and form them into Auxilliary units, so the Auxilliaries are the allies you mention. However, there is nothing to stop you and you could "borrow" a couple of warbands from one of the barbarian lists, but I would only use the normal warbands and not the fanatical ones. They would most likely not fight for their enemy or would have died fighting them before subjugation. I know that some players will try to "cherry pick" units as allies, but that doesn't really work in HC. The units are pretty well balanced and because of the nature of the game, there are no Power units. The game is about command and control, not who has the hardest, toughest troops.

HC was not really intended to use lists, but rather scenarios, which is why there are no lists in the book. A scenario might have a force that uses allies and would specify which ones you could take. However, there is no reason why you couldn't build an army that included allied warbands.

It is difficult to abuse the game because it is not one that is intended for "competition" gaming. It is also not part of the Ethos of HC or it's older sister, Black Powder, to be played by anyone other than "Gentlemenn". In this game, you must clearly state your intention when giving your order and then roll to see if that order was completed. It is possible to get as many as three moves from an order roll, and so you divide your order up into three sections and perform each part in order over those moves moves. This takes a little getting used to and because a player has to announce it loud and clear, his opponent will make sure that instructions are carried out to the letter. It is no good a player saying one thing and then saying that he meant something else. He must declare exactly what he means and intends.

The second part that tends to stop ungentlemanly conduct is the Proximity rule. That is the most difficult rule to adjust to, but it is quite simple. It stops unscrupulous types doing unrealistic things.

Hope this helps

[A Lot of Gaul]

Greetings, Chuck!

In addition to the excellent suggestions that Al provided, it is worth noting that in HC you can determine the size of a Standard unit to be whatever works best for your existing armies. So it you want to keep your cohorts at their current size and deployed in 3-rank battle lines, then you could simply set the size of a Standard unit frontage at 100mm, and organize all of your other units accordingly.

Alternatively, if you want to follow the suggested unit frontages as given in the HC rulebook, you could do as Al suggests and deploy your Standard cohorts in 2-rank battle lines. Or, you could combine two of your cohorts into one Standard-sized, 3-rank unit with a frontage of 200mm and a strength of 30 figures.

You could even declare your existing cohorts to be Small units, and give them a stat line similar to the one provided for Hastati armed with pila in the Republican Roman army list. All of your Standard units would then have a strength and frontage of twice that size.

One of the great strengths of Hail Caesar is its flexibility. Remember that the unit sizes and strengths given in the rulebook are suggestions, not mandates chiseled in stone. So as long as your Standard unit frontages are all roughly equivalent and consistent, you should be good to go!

Cheers,
Scott

[rick priestley]

Have to agree with everything Al and Scott say here really - as my own Romans were originally put together for WAB and then adapted for HC I've jumped through the same hoops.

The Army Lists book includes EIR as well as other contemporary armies - and if you don't have that I'd suggest you pick up a copy as it does provide some of the formal structure that you're looking for in your store games. The lists are also fairly complete - comparable to the WAB lists.

I settled on a standard unit width of 160-200mm because thats 8-10 men wide in WAB and suits us - my EIR legionary units are 24 figures (a cohort in 1:20 scale) - so many of the pictures in the book are just my 24 man cohorts 3 deep. The depth isn't critial at all - I tend to field the auxiliaries in 16 men units 2 deep. The critical thing is that standard sized units should be about the same width. I'd suggest you field your 15 man units two deep - it doesn't matter that the second rank is a man short!

If you want to be a bit more formal about things - probably a good idea for store games - I'd go for a standard frontage of 160mm for infantry units and 150 mm for cavalry units (thats 8 WAB infantry or 6 WAB cavalry). That should be doable with armies designed for WAB - remember the depths are largely for show in HC (although it helps to have heavier troops in deeper ranks as it makes them easier to identify). Small units could then be fixed at 100mm frontage for infantry and 125mm cavalry (5 figures in each case - you could have small cavalry units at 100mm and 4 figures if you wish but it just looks too few to my way of thinking!)

I'd suggest you avoid large units in store games - they work best in large demos where it becomes inconveninet to move lots of smaller units - I'd alsosuggest fielding all skirmishing infantry and light cavalry as small units (as they are in the Army Lists).

Hope that helps

Rick

[chazaroo]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I have a couple of follow up questions.

1. Big Al suggested the following:

"If you want to order the unit into a narrower, deeper formation, then you would issue the formation change as part of the order you give to the unit. The chapter on Page 18 explains the various formation options. "

I don't think this is actually an option. From how I understand it, a formed unit can be in column or battle line (and square/testudo if available). If in battle line then it is basically in its standard frontage and depth, so for a 2 rank, 16 man EIR cohort, it would be 8 figures wide and two deep. It doesn't have the option under the rules as written to change to something narrower and deeper except column, does it? Am I missing something?

2. I really like Scott's suggestion for simply reducing the frontage of a standard unit to 100mm. This actually solves a LOT of problems for me, both as a gamer and as a store owner. As a gamer it means I don't need to do too much work to my existing army to make it work in HC. As a store owner, it also makes it easier to market the game because it means players don't need quite so many figures to start playing. This means it's easier to generate interest and make sales. Here's my question: is there some negative consequence to doing this? I can't think of any, but then again I've only played one test/learning game.

3. As Rick wisely noted, the culture of a game store crowd is much different than a "club" crowd. Add Americans' fanatical need to play everything super competitively, and the question comes up "will HC work in a tournament environment". The game will be much easier to market if there is at least hope of tournament play. This is at odds with Rick's stated intent for HC. What do you guys think - can HC be used for tournament play? The rules look relatively well written enough for a tournament, but then again I don't have actual experience.

4. Is there a FAQ or errata for HC or the Army List book? I've looked around, but can't find any. I note minor errors in the rule book - like blue getting to fire during the red firing phase as set forth on page 24. This is microscopic, but there may be bigger ones that I don't recognize, particularly in the army lists.

Thanks again for all of you guidance. I've found a number of distributors that carry the full line of Warlord products, so I'm looking hard at carrying it in the store and FINALLY getting to play ancients again!
Chuck

[Eumerin]

4. Is there a FAQ or errata for HC or the Army List book? I've looked around, but can't find any. I note minor errors in the rule book - like blue getting to fire during the red firing phase as set forth on page 24. This is microscopic, but there may be bigger ones that I don't recognize, particularly in the army lists.

The Han China list is apparently missing its points costs in the army list book. An errata for this has been published and is available here -

http://www.warlordgames.com/14314/oops- ... ok-errata/

[Big Al]

Hi Chuck

You could order a unit to change into an "Attack" or "Assault" Column (a better name might be phalanx) which would be a deeper formation with a narrower frontage. Rick has already said elsewhere that it is a legitimate formation, even though the terminology is from a later period (Napoleonics). There is also the Wedge and the Pig's Head which are mentioned in the Useful Rules section.

There is also a Yahoo Group to support these rules, which has some additional support. Most of us on here are also on there as well as a few others. Unfortunately, a FAQ hasn't emerged as yet, which will be down to Rick's tardiness Probably an oversight.

With regard to Scott's suggestion, there is no negative about it. All that would happen is that those with larger units would trim them to suit, temporarily, or everyone would build armies to match. Any that don't quite would be easy to adjust.

HC wasn't designed to be played in tournaments, but with a little tweaking it would work. The main contention would be around orders and what was intended by them. This would have to be very tight indeed so that there would be no ambiguity. Player A states an order and carries it out and Player B refutes the intention. That could lead to some disputes. There are also one or two rules that are open to interpretation, which would have to be nailed down. This is less of an issue with HC than it is with Black Powder, where some of those arguments are still going on.

[A Lot of Gaul]

Chuck,

The only possible area of concern that comes to mind for the smaller 100mm Standard frontage might be with Small skirmisher and light infantry/cavalry units. However, there should be no problem when they are in open order, occupying a Standard-size frontage, and as long as your light infantry and cavalry can form up in two ranks in close order with a frontage in the neighborhood of 50-75mm, you should be good to go.

Cheers,
Scott