Fireforge Teutonic Knight sets.

[Centurion Dan]

Hmmm........Crusades - yes please!
I must admit having a certain fondness for the Knights Hospitaller - also known as the Knights os St John - who are still prevalent today under the guise of St. Johns Ambulance.

St. John's Ambulance has no link to either of the successor orders: the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem or Brandenburg Bailiwick of the Chivalric Order of Saint John of the Hospital at Jerusalem (or further successors in Holland and Sweden).

St. Johns was founded as a revival order (also called a mimic order) which was granted a royal charter by Queen Victoria and uses the same emblem - obviously before modern IP law was passed

I would beg to differ. I have been to Malta at least three times and visited various castles, forts etc there which were under the control of the Knights Hospitaller. There is definate evidence in these places of a link between the Hospitallers and St Johns ambulance.

[Invisible officer]

There are some St. John orders today, some on friendly terms, some.... .
The most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John for example was founded in 1826 in France but failed partly .

The later formed English Priory is a sovereign one, not under any international control. They have an alliance with the German Johanniterorden and some others.

Some of the modern St. John orders own properties on Malta but they got them in modern times, they are no proof for any connection to the medieaval Maltese / St. John knights.

Napoleon destroyed the Maltese order's power on Malta in 1798. Never to return. It came the RN. Malta should be given back to the order following the treaty of Amiens 1802. But.....

[Cubster]

I had the best steak of my life in a restaurant in Malta called 'The Overflow'. It's in Qawra, about five minutes' walk from the bus stop.

[grant]

I had the best steak of my life in a restaurant in Malta called 'The Overflow'. It's in Qawra, about five minutes' walk from the bus stop.

That does sound nice.

[carvel2]

I'm going to Malta for my summer hols. Perhaps I should paint some figures to match

[janner]

I bet you were the school swot

No, just someone whose current academic life is dominated by crusaders in general and the Third Crusade in particular

I would beg to differ. I have been to Malta at least three times and visited various castles, forts etc there which were under the control of the Knights Hospitaller. There is definate evidence in these places of a link between the Hospitallers and St Johns ambulance.

I've also been to Malta on occasion, I believe the Order had sovereignty over the islands rather than just control of various castles and forts.

All the evidence I have seen to date is that St John's Ambulance was formed entirely independently of a Grand Master of the successor orders. Whilst there are links of varying degrees of cordiality between similarly named bodies (and inspiration drawn from the original order in the initiation of the later copies), this is not the same thing as a continual thread linking the original order to St. John's Ambulance.

Happy to stand corrected if you have something new though

I'm going to Malta for my summer hols. Perhaps I should paint some figures to match

Great idea, but do you go for the medieval black and white or the renaissance red - choices, choices

[Invisible officer]

The modern St. John orders have no sovereignity over Malta. It's a republic. It would be strange to have a mostly protestant English St. John one (With the Queen as highest ranking) on a roman-catholic Island (state - religion!) . But the catholic St. John orders too have no saying.

[janner]

The modern St. John orders have no sovereignity over Malta. It's a republic. It would be strange to have a mostly protestant English St. John one (With the Queen as highest ranking) on a roman-catholic Island (state - religion!) . But the catholic St. John orders too have no saying.

Agreed, hence the use of the past tense of to have - had - in my post in regards to the Order's sovereignty of Malta

For obvious reasons, Maltese academics refer to "The Order" and one or two have been known to wonder what the point was in having any others was

[Cubster]

I've also been to Malta on occasion, I believe the Order had sovereignty over the islands rather than just control of various castles and forts.

Now, this is iffy because because I'm working from memory, but I think the order leased the island from the King of Spain (as King of Sicily he also had Malta) for the princely sum of one hunting falcon per year. After they were kicked out of Cyprus (first half 16th century, can't remember exact date) they went begging for a suitable new home, Malta was fairly disposable and I guess the king decided it was advantageous to have the military order act as a shield for southern Europe in the middle of the Med and continue their quasi-piracy against the king's enemies.

[janner]

Now, this is iffy because because I'm working from memory, but I think the order leased the island from the King of Spain (as King of Sicily he also had Malta) for the princely sum of one hunting falcon per year. After they were kicked out of Cyprus (first half 16th century, can't remember exact date) they went begging for a suitable new home, Malta was fairly disposable and I guess the king decided it was advantageous to have the military order act as a shield for southern Europe in the middle of the Med and continue their quasi-piracy against the king's enemies.

Yes, opinion is divided over the degree of sovereignty they enjoyed - especially after the failure of the Ottoman siege.

They clearly demonstrated de facto sovereignty in granting charters, making laws, gathering tax etc, and the position of the present Sovereign Military Order of Malta is that also enjoyed de iure.