Coats & Flags

[Correus]

Okay - I'm doing some ECW surfing on the net and run across a post on another forum that has got me to thinking "Hmmm......".

Here is the brunt of what was said in regard to coats and flags:

Coat colours are a moot point as to be honest we don't know for many regiments. Some probably didn't have any uniform at all. Blue coats were fairly common but white was less so, with some exception - most famously the Earl of Newcastles "Whitecoats" at Marston Moor (probably actually a light gray). Of course you could go for Brookes "Purple coats"! Coat colours don't correlate with flag colours either & we don't know much about those either!

Perrymans – the flag is correct but the references I think I have seen for the coats are either suspected to have been in blue or grey coats. If it bothers you I'd use you two ensigns for your next unit (ie Pennymans in blue of grey or a mix of both to be safe as ECW units weren't very often in just one uniform coat colour) and paint up two new ensigns and flags for this green coat unit.

Northamptons, TIlliers and Broughtons wore green on the Royalist side but no flags are known for these but its very unusual for flags and coats to be the same colour in ECW.

Jones Farnham greencoats are the most well known Parliamentarian green coat unit. The flags are thought to have been white. Part of Manchesters huge regiment may have worn green but there also references to it being in red and possibly blue. Worth bearing in mind coat colours can change year on year and a unit my be in green one year then grey the next. Facing colours were also almost certainly mixed in battalia.

I was actually planing on going along the lines of 'green coat = green flag, red coat = red flag, blue coat = blue flag etc'. I guess I would be wrong doing this.

How do you guys decide what flags to use with what coat colors?

Also, once you have made your flag color decision, how do you decide WHICH flags to go with. I have seen ECW units that have flags for the Colonel's Company, Lieutenant-Colonel's Company, Major's Company, First, Second & Third Captains' Companies - that would be six flags to a unit!!! I only want two, three at the most (three if I opt for command stands for each element http://saxondog.blogspot.com/2011/03/ecw.html).

[Invisible officer]

I totally agree with your idea of using only a few flags for the regiment. Our gaming units tend to be top heavy anyway. Too many staff.

The authour of that article just summarizes our situation. For some units we have informations, for most not. The concept that flag colour and dress colour are identical was an old one. Hardly based on facts but still repeated in some books.

Just name your unit the Duke of Correus's own and you can choose what YOU like.

[mikeland]

If you can get a copy of English Civil War Flags and Colours: v. 1: English Foot by Stuart Peachey, Les Prince (Paperback, 1991) this is a good resource.

[Correus]

Thanks guys!!

Just name your unit the Duke of Correus's own and you can choose what YOU like.

I like this idea!!!

If you can get a copy of English Civil War Flags and Colours: v. 1: English Foot by Stuart Peachey, Les Prince (Paperback, 1991) this is a good resource.

I'll see if I can find a copy.

[smolders]

This fellow whom(?) you quote in the original post is well informed, however, lets have a look at what he says:

"blue was fairly common white was less so" given his starting statment "we don't know for many regiments" how can his stand on blue be accurate?

The whole "white/ light grey" is so very annoying for me given the state of any army in action how long would white stay white? Perhaps white was a way to describe a more natural tone that wasn't pure white but wasn't grey either like the colour of natural wool for instence.

The coat/flag colour issue is one that will be, I am sure, argued forever whilst our fellow being quoted says "very unusual for flags and coats to be the same colour" I point out the original statmrnt made, "we don't know"... in my opinion (and it is not wisened or steeped in huge librarys of knowlage) I think this stand on colour and flag is born out of what little contempary information available to us, for example William Levet's (a spy is is claimed) manulscript all of the London Tryned Bands flags in detail in 1643 as the trained bands of London were commonly issued Buff coats the flags wouldn not match the coat colour add that to captured flags through out the wars and you have a basis for a statment like flags and coats didn't match. Sound enough at face value but not based on a complet cross section of armies of the time adn therefore not a hard and fast fact.

Facing colours I thought were not an issue until later in history and I cannot comment on that.
The comment "units weren't very often in one uniform" is not incorrect as units were filled with new recruits and would often times not have coats of the origianl colours issued to them simply because the material was not available or more basicly as time wore on colours, through exposure and wear and tear, would fade giving a new recruit a differnt shade of colour to that of the veteran soldiers.
I have to agree withthe other fellows, theres nothing that can say you cannot do coats and flags matching, in fact i like doing that myself..theres nothing out there to say you can't.
The same with flags, I take the flags I like and use them, I like a flag with a device on it so I rearly use the Generals flags its the sargent majors or majors flags for me.

Sorry I've gone on a bit here haven't I...to

[Correus]

You've got some good point there smolders, thanks for your input. I like the way you think in regard to which flags to use as well.

[HobbitMiles]

I think the point being made about coat and flag colours is that in contemporary documents regiments may be referred to as "The Blew Regiment", "The Red Regiment" and so on, but this is used to refer to the colour of the regimental flags not the regimental coats - other contemporary sources refer to "blew coats", "red coats" etc. There may be instances where both coat and flag were the same colour, but it shouldn't be taken for granted.

As to white coats, there is a fair body of research to suggest thaty they actually may not have been all that uncommon and that it refers to natural, undyed wool - this was often mixed with natural black wool to create a range of shades ranging from fairly pure white, through creams, browns, greys etc depending on the mix - it is perfectly possible to have several shades in the same unit. White wool is actually very resiliant, I've seen re-enactors' coats that have been used for many years (probably equivalent in total to a real comapign season) without being washed that are still basically white - naturally occuring lanolin in the wool is an excellent repellant of dirt.

A good way to achieve this with miniatures is to either paint up from a grey or brown undercoat, lightening to white highlights or wash a white undercoat with grey or brown.

[HobbitMiles]

Oh, and facings did come into play with the NMA red coats - they were used to help distinguish the different regiments of foote who were otherwise all in red coats and "sad" britches.

[Hillbilly_Red]

Correct
However, Essex's army of 1643 had facings.

[smolders]

Thanks for clearing up the facings thing-y for me fellows!!!