Kampfgruppe Normandy

[Panzermike]

As I think I pointed out in another thread, KN seems expensive as £48 is a big layout. But at a page per pence ratio it is pretty much on a par with Hail Caesar and Black Powder, and a third of the price per page of Operation Squad, and just a couple of pence more per page than the Flames of War basic book.

It is actually reasonable value. My grumble would be that by making such a large book, instead of separating the content over a few books it makes it hard for those who don't have such a large amount of spare cash at one time.

In my opinion and with no offense meant I find this a ludicrous logic to take, the bottom line is that other Rulesets such as disposable heroes at £12.50, Rules of Engagement at £25.00, Flames of War at £30 and Operation Squad at £18.00 put KN as a complete no brainer at £48. How much credibility you put in a company that suddenly halves the price of its rulesets just like that is up to each individual, for me, my money has to be spent wisely on the right ruleset. I like the 28mm size and that is my second reason for not obtaining KN. I went for RoE and really enjoy the ruleset. I was looking at trying Operatiojn Squad as I would enjoy to involve more armour in my game (not that you can't do that in RoE) but am now looking forward to see the results of that announcement of the joint venture between Warlord Games and Osprey. If they keep it to the ethos of a skirmish game like RoE but expanding it to include larger formations and Airstrikes and the like It could be a great game to look forward to.

[Colonel White]

PanzerMIke- Whilst I don't quite agree with what your saying you are entitled to voice your opinion and so is Mikeland with whom you don't appear to agree with.

As regards individual rulesets its upto each and everyone of us to judge for ourselves whether a ruleset is worth its money.It isn't just the price .

I for one see value in KGN even though I paid full price for it . Listed below are the reasons why

1) This is the only WW2 ruleset our club uses . We have around 30 players of all different ages and we have a large Sunday battle every other month with usually around 8 players per side on average. We play on very large boards approx 18x12 ft and usually there is a buffet to keep us going with supplies.

2) We all tend to play 20mm which is what KGN is designed for. Although it can easily be adopted for other scales.
3) The ruleset is a complete book with no other supplements needed to play the game. Full and complete army lists are enclosed.
4) The book serves as a very good introduction to our younger players who have no or very little prior knowledge on WW2.
5) THe book is in full colour and has plenty of photos of inspirational vehicles and scenery.
6) The game is being developed further in a number of ways.
i) Members of the Guild including my very good forum friend Piers Brand (who is also a driver behind Force on Force)are developing lists for other campaigns and theaters for WW2.Some of the lists will end up in Wargames Illustrated.
ii) THe author is also developing the game and has a blogg with some of the ideas he is currently looking at.
iii) Some of our club guys assisited by some of the older end like myself are developing the game for use for the Cold War Period.
7) The Wargamers Guild have developed a forum community around that game.
8) Whilst the game is in the GW stable it plays like no other GW game as the mechanics are completely different. Whether this is a good or bad thing is upto the individual.
9) The games is FUN and easy to learn and has been playtested for over 3 years as I know of.

To conclude one has to look a little further than just the price before deciding on a ruleset and whilst yes many WW2 games are cheaper, in my own case I would just be wasting my money on a door stop !

[NTM]

Another point in KGN's favour is that it includes many excellent historical/generic scenarios/campaigns which for me make it worth the purchase price alone even though I intend to use them for other rule systems and may possibly never play the game itself.

[mikeland]

As I think I pointed out in another thread, KN seems expensive as £48 is a big layout. But at a page per pence ratio it is pretty much on a par with Hail Caesar and Black Powder, and a third of the price per page of Operation Squad, and just a couple of pence more per page than the Flames of War basic book.

It is actually reasonable value. My grumble would be that by making such a large book, instead of separating the content over a few books it makes it hard for those who don't have such a large amount of spare cash at one time.

In my opinion and with no offense meant I find this a ludicrous logic to take, the bottom line is that other Rulesets such as disposable heroes at £12.50, Rules of Engagement at £25.00, Flames of War at £30 and Operation Squad at £18.00 put KN as a complete no brainer at £48. How much credibility you put in a company that suddenly halves the price of its rulesets just like that is up to each individual, for me, my money has to be spent wisely on the right ruleset. I like the 28mm size and that is my second reason for not obtaining KN. I went for RoE and really enjoy the ruleset. I was looking at trying Operatiojn Squad as I would enjoy to involve more armour in my game (not that you can't do that in RoE) but am now looking forward to see the results of that announcement of the joint venture between Warlord Games and Osprey. If they keep it to the ethos of a skirmish game like RoE but expanding it to include larger formations and Airstrikes and the like It could be a great game to look forward to.

Hi Panzermike

You appear to have misunderstood my original posting. I haven't played KGN so I cannot comment on the game play, my observations were based on having had a look through it and I was simply noting that although the book seems expensive, from a purely 'bean counting' £ per page point of view it is no worse value than any of the other similar quality rule sets.

And the fact that it is undoubtably a beautifully produced volume and a labour of love for its author.

The half price sale is not a reason to criticise them either, hard back books typically have a large margin on them. (Remember Asda selling a £15 harry potter hard back for a £5) As a result they were able to have this sale, shift some stock, help their products penetrate the market and no doubt get in some early Christmas sales.

If I was into 20mm WW2 I would buy this without doubt, even at full price it seems worth it. However personally I prefer 28mm figures, so I will be waiting for the Bolt Action rules next year, but this is merely personal choice.

I refuse to judge a product negatively just because it doesn't fit my exact requirement, or because of the company producing it or even if there are other good products on the market... I made my comments purely on my opinion, having no bias either way. I'm sure RoE, OS, FoW are all great games as well, but that doesn't mean you have to hate on KGN.

[grant]

I have been tempted by KGN from when it came out. I really enjoy the quality of the Warhammer Historical books, I own a large portion of them. At full price, the book was good value. At half price, it's a downright steal! I haven't picked it up myself, just because I am waiting for BA WW2. But I think it's a great value.

[zedeyejoe]

put KN as a complete no brainer at £48. How much credibility you put in a company that suddenly halves the price of its rulesets just like that is up to each individual, for me, my money has to be spent wisely on the right ruleset.

Well at £24 do you rate it now? It obviously depends on disposable income, for those on £250K a week, this amount would be less than trivial.

I think you will see the half price sale as a never to be repeated offer. In other words this is the end of WHH and that the half-price offer is their closing down sale.

On purely rules grounds I do take the point that it is a very limited ruleset (to Normandy only) and to judge it on those facts is fair. I think I can do better.

The half price sale is not a reason to criticise them either, hard back books typically have a large margin on them. (Remember Asda selling a £15 harry potter hard back for a £5)

From something I heard on the radio yesterday, apparently the cost of production of a hard back book (no colour inside) is £1.

[Sirius]

I for one see value in KGN even though I paid full price for it. Listed below are the reasons why

1) This is the only WW2 ruleset our club uses . We have around 30 players of all different ages and we have a large Sunday battle every other month with usually around 8 players per side on average....

This is probably the best reason anyone can present as an argument to buy a ruleset.

Personally, i think, as a book, its pretty, and empressive, so at 24 pounds i dont think it is a waste of money or a waste of space on my bookshelf. I agree that the scenario selection alone makes it worth the money. I dont like the fact that it doesnt have an index. That the publishers saw fit to include 2 pages of cross-marketing, but neglected to index a 348pp book, irritated me a bit, as it makes the book less practical for me.

As a set of rules I dont think its worth the money, as its very unlikely that i will ever play a game using them, but i like the morale chit system, and i might steal that for use in other rulesets...

@Zed: I wouldnt believe everything you hear on the radio. While you can reduce the unit costs of books by printing vast quantities, paper and ink and warehousing are fixed costs per copy ...

[Panzermike]

@Mikeland apologies I did not mean any insult as I pointed out and fully understand your reasoning, point I was attempting to make that, like others I'm sure, do not start doing those kind of calculations if faced with all the rulesets lined up. Im looking at it from the point of view that if you had all these WW2 rulesets next to each other the one priced up at £48 would not be at the top of your list.

I've read the murmours of WHH being no longer so half price sale may well make a lot of sense. Anything to do with GW I have not seen them be that generous on offering hlaf price....

I have also not read this rulebook so perhaps yes its unfair to slag it off but based on comments from some of the chaps here, Sirius, in particular is just not what I look for in a WW2 Skirmish game.

[Colonel White]

I can honestly say KGN is definately not a Skirmish game nor was it set out to be. Skirmish Games tend to have a lot of detail such as how many grenades a soldier is carrying and what type of armour he is wearing etc etc. KGN is not detailed enough for that and there are plenty of good skirmish type rules out there that will cater for those needs.

[mikeland]

@Mikeland apologies I did not mean any insult as I pointed out and fully understand your reasoning, point I was attempting to make that, like others I'm sure, do not start doing those kind of calculations if faced with all the rulesets lined up. Im looking at it from the point of view that if you had all these WW2 rulesets next to each other the one priced up at £48 would not be at the top of your list.

I've read the murmours of WHH being no longer so half price sale may well make a lot of sense. Anything to do with GW I have not seen them be that generous on offering hlaf price....

I have also not read this rulebook so perhaps yes its unfair to slag it off but based on comments from some of the chaps here, Sirius, in particular is just not what I look for in a WW2 Skirmish game.

No offense taken... I'm pretty thick skinned.

I think KGN is more designed to hit the FoW side of the market than the RoE skirmish side of things, I imagine that BA will be a larger 'skirmish' size game. With some armour, and a good few miniatures on the board but small enough to play at 28mm... but time will tell.