Uniforms

[oolaa]

I can't help but notice that the Swedish infantry on the box front are all wearing identical uniforms.

In my knowledge uniforms weren't used in swedish armies until around 1670?

Does anyone else have a different opinion?

[Cubster]

Yes, Gustavus Adolphus was famous for having introduced regimental uniforms to the Swedish Army (during the 1630's?) and so they would have been a common sight in the Thirty Years War. There would certainly be an interesting discussion as to how widespread or exact the ... well, uniformity ... of this was, but I think it's pretty well established in history that the uniforms were worn.

[Lovstrom]

No
REal uniforms where not introduced until 1670ish
.There where some units that had a more uniform appearance.
We heard of the Yellow ,Green and Blue Brigades but there is no evidence that this was because of the clothes
or that they wore parts of their clothes in a given color.The clothing was very much dependent on what was available.
Some reports says that the Swedes appeared like a rubble of bad clothing.Then of cause they won some victories and
got hold of an Enemy depot.That made a drastic improvement of their appearance.

Even in 1670 there where not one uniform color for the army.Uniforms of different regiments where red,blue,yellow and grey.
But now the whole regiment was in one color.The coat.
For example My own regiment had a yellow coat with black cuffs.The Hälsinge regiment where red coat with green cuffs.

It was not until The Blue and yellow uniforms of the Nordic war it was a uniform looking army.

Sven

[Cubster]

Now that's in complete contrast to what I have read abut Gustavus Adolphus (which in fairness is limited to the odd article here and there plus the Ospreys books).

I don't know how accurate this guy's research is, but his painting guide says coloured coats - http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/thirty-ye ... -guide.htm

The Vinkhuijzen paintings aren't much good because the dates are too vague.

Again, no idea of his sources but this guy also agrees - http://www.library.vexillia.ltd.uk/unif ... ms30YW.pdf
If you scroll down to Swedish uniforms he says,
- Militia and pre 1626 coats were tawny orange and or light grey with white trim.
- The red, blue and yellow regiments at least wore coloured cassocks during this period.
- Native Swedish troops often wore blue. Light blue overcoats with fur trim were worn in winter.
- Post 1626 wore blue, yellow and red coats and pants. Thurn's regiment wore blue.

I have an open mind about it and aren't defending a position, it's just I'd be curious to know why there is a difference of opinion and why there appears to be conflicting information?

Is it simply a case of the regulations being largely unenforceable in a practical campaign?

[Lovstrom]

Cubster
I am by no means any authority on this subject.I dont think many are.
But for the first link you gave..Notice the "all color to hand" sentence.

The other thing is if you notice that the recruits where issued grey-white woolen clothes.
This is in fact the plain woolen clothes that most Swedes wore at this time.
I think that what most people see when they look into this is the colored regiments.
And they where special but even they had to go by the all color to hand rule.

When we see at the English Civil war we see that every Colonel of a regiment choose his own color.
Probably very much by what was at hand and by least expensive.

Sweden.even if a good military reputation at the time was not very rich.It got worse because of a lot of wars.
Before the 30year war Sweden was involved in Poland.
Gustavus was the mind behind many improvements in the Swedish army of the time
but most that was other than tactical got postponed after his death.
It is also this with the view of blue as a national Swedish color.When the ship Wasa was first reconstructed it was seen as painted blue.I think there is some national thinking of blue as the color of Sweden.Newer evidence tend to show that Wasa was in fact colored red.
Now I was not there and no one else of us either so we cant know for sure.

But the first writen sources that state that a regiment should wear a specific color is not before 1670ish

Sven
I

[Cubster]

The sentences you refer to in that first link read -

From 1626 infantry regiments began to issue coats of a uniform colour - both Swedish and mercenary (Brzezinski, 1991). Some of the coloured regiments (at least Yellow, Blue/Old Blue, Red) adopted coats of a matching colour, and others may have done the same. Some non-coloured regiments also adopted uniform colours. Bear in mind, however, that references to "any-colour-at-hand cloth" are common, reflecting the fact that suppliers were not shy of providing a mixture of colours to a regiment if they couldn't provide a single colour.

Which tells us that there were uniforms for some of the 'coloured' regiments, that some of the other regiments began to adopt uniforms too, but that uniform suppliers were often unable to provide enough of a single colour to fill a regimental order. Well, this is nothing new and frankly even Napoleonic armies could expect to field large numbers of men in a motley assortment of whatever they could find to hand.

So Lovstrom, am I right in thinking you are saying that there were regimental uniforms, often chosen by the colonel for reasons of a personal whim or convenience, but no overall national uniform for Sweden, despite blue seeming to be a fairly common colour. I wonder why there is such a lot of information that tells us regimental uniforms did exist then in the Thirty Years War if the first written records that confirm this aren't until 1670? Guesswork by the writer? Contemporary illustrations?

Who knows. Well OOLA, there's your answer - yes and no! If opinion is divided and you have conflicting information then it's your own choice as to which way you want to go. From what I've read and what Lovstrom has posted, I'd personally still have a uniform colour for a few regiments in a Swedish army, but with plenty of people wearing different coloured bits and pieces scattered here and there.

[Invisible officer]

The units that served in Germany would hardly be uniform due to material losses. The so called coloured regiments in TYW are named following the regimental flags colour, not for the colour of the dress actually worn.
They are shown on the watercolours by Möhner for the Swedish forces occupying Augsburg 1632-35. Others are named folowing the colonel or region.

But there was a certain degree of uniformity.
The yellow regiment went to war with yellow dress, in 1627 Colonel Teuffel's yellowcoats are mentioned. In August a unit of German Yellowcoats was mentioned by Hoppe, this might be the same "Swedish" unit. In 1632 the unit received new dress in Nürnberg. The colour was not specified in the sources, but the big Reichsstadt and trading centre should have been able to provide enough yellow cloth. This would be the "uniform" für Lützen.

Uniform would imply a certain cut and colour for all soldiers in the unit. In the TYW time uniforms are ordered without exact specification. No Swedish regulation is known for TYW.
In the London Public record office you find the letter from James Spens to King Charles about Swedish uniform colours (but not identical cut) . (PRO SP 92/5 179) It dates from October 1627.

The campaigning in Germany was very hard for men and clothing alike. Swedish made cloth may assumed to be of good quality but local contractors sold all qualities from good to awfull.

Just dress your Swedes in newly issued dress, anyway your miniatures are new without any ampaign done.

[grant]

Man! Is there any army or period that you aren't an expert on, IO? You are an amazing font of knowledge.

[Cubster]

So there was a measure of uniformity then, certainly as regards colour? But with campaigning taking its inevitable toll (as in all campaigns) the longer the regiment was away from the depot the more motley we could expect to see in the unit?

All sounding very reasonable so far.

Indeed many modern Swedish movies seem to suggest that even now many young Swedish ladies are unable to afford clothing, especially when they have to pay for washing machine repairs, pizza delivery, etc..

[Lovstrom]

This is after all a wargaming forum.I think we can just paint the soldiers the way we like it.
When I get my hand on the pike and shot rules and start of my Swedish army I am sure
I am going to have at least one Yellow regiment and some blue red and green too.
I am also sure that my Scots will wear what we are used to think Scots are wearing.

This is the way we as wargamers tend to think.

I seem to remember that even back when that Osprey book came out we where not that convinced.
Invisible officer who can of cause express himself far better than me in english writes it better than me.
I was talking about clothing during campaign.And if you where lucky the different companies had the same color.
But not uniform as a whole regiment.

Sven