Zulu war arms

[PDE]

Hi,

Invisible Officer I am interested in some of the information that you have posted. Especially the information regarding the Lancers. I wonder if you could be so good as to post the sources that you actually got this information from.

For example "
The regular cavalry trooper too had no revolver. He had a sword and a carbine. Only the NCO / Officer had the revolver instead of a long arm. The exception was the Lancer. He got no carbine, but a pistol / revolver in addition to sword and lance."


Many thanks,
Paul

[Invisible officer]

Any book about the British cavalry would do. Even the short Osprey series one by Chappell about Cavalry equipment.

Best source for arms are the orignal LOC / List of changes. Reprints are available by Skennerton. For Zulu war you need Volume I 1860-1886.

Best book about the Revolvers is from Chamberlain and Taylerson, Revolvers of the British services 1854-1954, published by Museum Restoration Service in 1989

For the Martini Henry I would name Temple / Skennerton, A treatise on the British Miitary Martini, The Martini Henry 1869-C1900.

Or try your public library for Rogers, Weapons of the British soldierLondon 1960, p. 175. Like all the others he states the pistols for lancers in pláce of carbines.

Lancer regiments got a few carbines for piquet service. Post Zulu war they got carbines following the trend for a universal cavalry.
In all regiments Sergeants and Trumpeters kept the revolver.

[PDE]

Many thanks for that.

I am in the process of placing our new lancers in the production moulds and was intrigued at some of the information regarding weapons especially those of the Lancers in the AZW as it does not tally with my research.

For example to quote Ian Knight in an article he wrote a few years back on the subject he states.

" In 1871 the British Government had adopted the Martini-Henry carbine for use by cavalry. This had a 22-in. barrel and a calibre of .45in.; it was carried in a leather 'bucket' behind the leg on the right side of the saddle." This does of course come from a good source as well as being completly logical for campaigning.

I have to say that throughout the design of the Empress range both Ian and Mike Snook have been fantastic sources of information especially in updating me on the very latest changes and also, and to my mind most importantly, what is and what is not known factually. A good example is Mounted Infantry. Did they wear spurs in the campaign. Not actually known but we decided to best guess and sculpt them as wearing spurs. (another soon to be released set.)

Sorry I'm waffling so getting back to the subject in hand both regular cavalry regiments were issued MH carbines.

Most Natal auxilliary cavalry regiments as well as the NMP were issued Swinburne Henry carbines, as indeed were the Imperial Mounted Infantry. All the units can be seen in contemporary photographs carrying these weapons to confirm this. The interesting thing about the Swinburne Henry is that although it is identical to the MH carbine it is actually a much better mounted weapon as it has a safety catch unlike the MH. This means that a rider can ride or carry it with a round chambered. Most useful when scouting. Unlike the regulars who had to ride unloaded. Also worth noting is that the majority of the SH carbines were locally converted to what was called a sporting model. This meant that the forestock was shortened to reduce weight. This was a local change. The IMI did not do this. The regulars, no doubt, would not have dared with a sergeant breathing down their necks.

As for the Natal Native Mounted Contingent they were mainly issued SH arbines although one troop is believed to have carried MH rifles.

Hope that helps.

Kind regards,
Paul

[Paul E]

Oooh look I've just found my original sign on as well

[Cubster]

Most Natal auxilliary cavalry regiments as well as the NMP were issued Swinburne Henry carbines, as indeed were the Imperial Mounted Infantry. All the units can be seen in contemporary photographs carrying these weapons to confirm this.

So was this done when the Mounted Infantry squadrons were initially formed or did it replace their original MH rifles part way through the campaign? The reason I ask is I'm sure I read in one of Ian Knight's books that they started off as pretty ad hoc and kept their rifles, at least initially. I'm sure I've also seen some illustrations (which means nothing in itself really) with the MI carrying rifles.

[PDE]

My information is that they were issued the SH before the campaign and Ian Knights early Osprey book shows them so armed at Isandlwana. This seems reasonably logical as the auxilliary cav units were being issued them.

They were ad hoc in that they were made up of men from a number of units who all kept their original tunics and relevant facings and regimental badges. Onlyb on the tunic though not the foriegn service helmet. The badges were removed before the campaign and the helmets dyed on the order of Lord Chelmsford. Sadly the white helmet and shiny badge did not happen. Mind you it does look good

However this yet again illustrates a lot of the confusion that still runs around the campaign. Recent years have seen some fantastic research on these details. To me this makes the campaign all the more exciting as it still continues to surprise in areas.

[Cubster]

Just got the answer from Mike Snook! Apparently the Imperial Mounted Infantry (the squadrons formed from regular infantry as opposed to the various Volunteer MI units) started with their original issue rifles and then were replaced with the carbines, No1 Sqd carrying the carbines at Isandlwana. Hey I got something right! Big day. So have the IMI been sculpted with one bandolier or two? I know they were issued with two, but it would probably be a bit rough expecting them to wear both at the same time.

It's a very petty thing perhaps, but I think I read in one of the Osprey books that the IMI wore the undress frock as opposed to the tunic.

PS. Ian Knight in the Osprey book agrees with you that the lancers were issued with carbines.

[Invisible officer]

Ian Knights Article may confuse with the date 1871. That was the year of deciding to get a MH carbine into service. But not the year of introduction. The sixth and last trial pattern was ordered 1876!
The first service pattern was approved 24 Sep 1877. LoC 3215

I should have written that the lancers wore only a pistol due to regulation until 1877, the regiments got the MH carbine late in 1878. In the Dragoons and Hussars the MH carbine replaced the Snider that was not used by the Lancers (apart piquets)

So the MH carbine was intended to be used by the lancers from 1877/78 on and should be worn in Zulu campaign. But at least one other Lancer regiment had dumped his new carbines in 1878 and the 17th had been very conservative. They did not train the men in carbine shooting in 1878 and all lancer regiment CO's tried to get rid of the carbines. But I saw Zulu war photos of 17th lancers with the carbine (cleaning them in camp) so you should do the miniatures with them.

But I'm not sure that all carried them in action since the men thought that the carbine butt would restrict the movement of the lance. The photo I'm refering to above shows only two troopers with the carbine in camp. Piquet use??
Contemporary drawings like that of de Neuville showed mounted 17th lancers without carbine amo pouches but this can't be
taken as a good source.
Camp photos show a wood of lances but few, if any, carbines. May be they are in the tents.

The charge at Ulundi was exactly what the lancer officers wanted, a firefight was not what they liked. For that reason lancers tried to charge the Boers two decades later with bad effect.

Best do the troopers with a carbine, following the Horse guards ideas. I think the officials made sure that the regiment had the carbines with them on the ship to Africa.

[HobbitMiles]

I think you'll find that the charge of the 5th Lancers at Elandslaagte in 1899 was quite effective! But do carry on, I'm not trying to hijack this into a 2nd Anglo-Boer War discussion.