Leather Helm Legionnaire

[feanor65]

Ciao.This is an old soldier that I have for 39 years.His helmet is special because it has never been produced by any.Only in the movie "Jesus of Nazareth" by Franco Zeffirelli is used by Roman legionnaires.I think a helmet was used by legionaries in daily service (patrol, guard, etc.).I do not think, in fact, that the patrols, guards, etc. they used the battle helmet. I also think that out of battle, the Legion would use normal coat or a leather bodice (as shown), this helmet, sword and a truncheon.It would be nice also to reproduce this kind of legionnaires to be used as archers in wargames or, without bow but with a sword or spear , as a guard patrols in the dioramas.Do you have news about this type of helmet?
Ciao everyone
Enrico

[zedeyejoe]

It might be a Roman marine. Leather armour is supposed to have been worn by marines and certainly archers would have been important in any sea battle.

[Invisible officer]

There is no ancient source for military leather armour use by the Republican or early imperial Romans.

The old Lindenschmidt reconstruction of leather armour, that was still used by the Airfix makers, is dying hard. The 2009 book by D'Amato and Sumner, Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman soldier from Marius to Commodus even have such a leather armed legionary on cover but it got in general very bad reviews among scientists.
That he not even mentions Lindenschmidt shows the "quality" of the work. He pretends a new approach. In fact old mistakes repeated by an amateur. His reconstruction is 100% the Airfix miniature.

Your archer looks like Haussser Elastolin or a copy. (Some firms produced copies, some with licence, some...) These are based on some 19th century reconstructions. You should see the legionary "shields" on other miniatures of this series.
Even Legionary drummers! They produced a lot of victorian style reconstruction ancients or similar like Vikings.

Take these as nice products from the mid 60's German toy industry. Some are still in production for collectors.

[zedeyejoe]

Well I offer this, for marine armour
http://scarrow.forumco.com/topic.asp?AR ... IC_ID=1647

[Invisible officer]

This article you give as link nicely summarize the arguments about leather armour.

No ancient source and no findings of original parts. (Many leather parts are found but nothing for armour)

Inferiror protection. So why use it? The idea that less weight would save a marine from drowning, with all the items strapped to the body he would swim like a stone. If he was able to swim at all.
Better movement? On the limited space of a ship deck protection is much more important. And why did the land Auxilary miles wear metal loricae if leather would have any advantage in movement?

In fact a leather thorax of significant strength is not light. Chain mail is much more flexible for movement.

But back to the miniature. I have an old Hausser Elastolin catalogue from the 70's, somewhere in my folders. My cousin had the game Römer gegen Karthager made bei Hausser, it included these archers. We played some actions with them.

The ranges included Vikings with horned helmets, "Germans" looking like Wagner opera types and a Prince Valiant.

[zedeyejoe]

Actually the Mongols used leather armour, so successfully that the Samurai thought it was a superior iron - it was shaped to deflect hits.

Reason for marines to use leather armour; weight and does not rust. Other nations, for instance Macedonians found advantages in non-metallic armour.

And yes I am aware that legions were made out of marines in cases of emergency. So that is why you could end up with troops in leather armour operating on land - not yet re-equipped.

In the Republican times only the wealthy could afford mail armour and most had to make do with a bronze chest plate and a leather jacket.

So no folks, do not dismiss the idea of marines in leather armour.

[Biggus Dickus]

Osprey men at arms "Imperial Roman naval forces 31BC- 500AD" page21/22.

Why use Leather armour on a ship. well one extremely obvious reason it doesn't rust in the salty sea air.
You might float if you fall in the sea, if you manage to drop the shield and sword in time! ....it's a lot lighter....it's also bloody cheap compared to metal and it looks like armour even if it doesn't act like it.

Regarding protection, admittedly as armour leather wouldn't be first on everyones list, but a Pickelhaube (spiked German helmets from ww1) are made from boiled leather and lacquered to make the shell hard, they don't stop bullets or shrapnel but may offer some protection from sling shot and long range arrows.
If it's a choice between facing the enemy in a toga or a leather breast plate i think i know what everyone would opt for.

I'll also add at this point that the greeks made stiff linen armour that according to modern ballistic studies is comparable to kevlar in protection...and light....oh and it's made from cloth...and glue.
i don't have the source readily to hand but a google search will eventually turn up the artical.

The other obvious point is...."but no leather armour has ever been found so until then, they didn't have it", arguement.
Firstly leather rots at an alarming rate.......take a look at WW1 Pickelhaubes if you have one of these in original form after a hundred years in the air they are pretty crusty, brittle and fragile. if they have been in the ground they aren't going to be in great shape and likely mostly rotted away.
After 2000 years I doubt they would even register as a stain in the soil.
Lorica segmentata i think only 2 sets have ever been found and maybe a few bits....yet in most peoples eyes that is how a roman soldier looks. That's not exactly a great ratio given that at any one time there must have been 150,000 in circulation....marine forces were a fraction of the available auxiliary forces...maybe only a few thousand at anyone time.
I want to make a point of saying there are likely more books about the romans in print than there are archaeological finds, most books are not made up from hard facts but theories based on what we/they know. No one can say anything for sure, most of what we know is assumption, there is no definitive answer.
just because something has yet to be found doesn't mean it wasn't used....and by the same token we can't prove it was....it's all best guess stuff.
To think differently from this and assume everything we read in books is true is at best anally retentive. Most books I read contradict each other....which to believe?...all of them? none of them?........then there is the the other way....make up your own mind...that sadly is the best we can do.
I don't normally get drawn into pinning my colours to a mast, it's dangerous territory, but on this matter I can be assured........we just don't know....................more to the point they are toy soldiers not museum exhibits.....so i wouldn't worry too much

[Biggus Dickus]

Actually the Mongols used leather armour, so successfully that the Samurai thought it was a superior iron - it was shaped to deflect hits.

Reason for marines to use leather armour; weight and does not rust. Other nations, for instance Macedonians found advantages in non-metallic armour.

And yes I am aware that legions were made out of marines in cases of emergency. So that is why you could end up with troops in leather armour operating on land - not yet re-equipped.

In the Republican times only the wealthy could afford mail armour and most had to make do with a bronze chest plate and a leather jacket.

So no folks, do not dismiss the idea of marines in leather armour.

Zed, we're singing from the same song sheet!!!!! simultaneous posting!.......Great minds and all that!

[zedeyejoe]

Well it is nice to know that you at least have a great mind. I will just soldier on with my drug addled brain - prescribed drugs I hasten to add.

[mikeland]

Just to put in my two pennies worth, I don't know about Roman marines, if they dod or don't wear leather, but I would suggest that a leather breastplate could afford a lot of protection. The Buff coats worn by ECW soldiers often protected them from sword, pike or longer range bullet wounds. By the later 1640's many cavalry troopers had done away with any kind of metal armour in favour of buff coats, due to the lightened load and ease of movement. This is just one of many examples of leather armour throughout the ages. So it is as much of a reasonable guess as any to say they could have had leather equipment.

The model in the OP is a lovely example of a much simpler, more naive, age of figure making, and has a nostalgic charm.

I do agree with Invisible though about the dreadful heritage of Victorian 'history', much of which we still suffer today...

Horned vikings, The Dashing Pretender Bonny Price Charlie, The 'Wars of the Roses', The cult of Boudicca etc... and of course my personal favourite, which many today are still duped by of the Dashing Caviller vs the Dour Oppressive Roundhead... utter fiction