Kampfgruppe Normandy

[Piers]

Particularly in the late war it was easy for tanks to spot targets even if they are hatch down. This is becasue they were littered with optical viewing instruments such as periscopes. Very later Panther Gs ( my favourite tank) were even fitted with Infra Red night viewing equipment.

Well that goes against all primary source material then... Tanks, even now are terrible to see out of when buttoned-up as evidenced by the US crews who rode out of the turrets during the Thunder Run through Baghdad.

Having been in a Panzer III M, a Tiger I, a T-34/85 and a Sherman, I can attest to how appaling vision is from all of them when buttoned up.

Simply put, if you wanted to see what was going on during a WW2 battle, you had to be out of the turret.

[shadegate]

Perhaps it's relative and they mean easier to spot out of buttoned down tanks than it was in the early war? Don't know as I haven't got the book. I must confess I'm getting more tempted though. Initially I baulked at the price but then realised I've bought several of the 40k imperial armour books for similar prices so that argument fell flat as far as I was concerned.

I'm looking at it from a WW2 game perspective rather than a WW2 Historical simulation so I'm not too concerned with whatever departures they've taked from perceived fact.

[Vanth]

Particularly in the late war it was easy for tanks to spot targets even if they are hatch down.

They wished, literally. Even in the seventies, israeli tank commanders used to tie their dogtags to their ankles rather than wearing them, as usual, around their neck; exactly because they needed to stick their heads out if they wanted to properly identify a target...

[Parus Ater]

Particularly in the late war it was easy for tanks to spot targets even if they are hatch down.

They wished, literally. Even in the seventies, israeli tank commanders used to tie their dogtags to their ankles rather than wearing them, as usual, around their neck; exactly because they needed to stick their heads out if they wanted to properly identify a target...

Or as the rest of us would call it some poor git's house!

The issue with information of this type in books is that authprs can get mixed up with relative terms so a tanks periscopes may not be just as usable as a shufty out the hatch but far more useful than amy other tank's periscopes so have an huge advantage in a hatch down combat situation. This could then be taken by an author as being just as good as a out the hatch vantage point.
The big issue about periscopes on hatch rings is that there'e no depth, the image is flat, suffers from colour fringing since there's no such thing as ED glass, the view is very narrow so you can't see up a hill or who's sneaking along below and there's always going to be a blindspot between each periscope.

[Colonel White]

As regards looking out of periscopes I was of course comparing early war and late war when more of these intruments were fitted. As a side issue I have just been applying some of these periscopes to a Stug 3 AusfG Dragon kit and agree with you guys there is of course nothing that can beat the view obtained by sticking your head out of the hatch but compared to the earlywar these instruments must have brought some sort of advantage otherwise they wouldn't have bothered fitting them in the first place especially as materials were in short supply. KGN allows for this in the rules by allowing suppressive fire to suppress AFVs which will effectivley take them out of the game temporarily for at least one turn .

[Piers]

Ahhh... Ok point taken.

Yes the additional vision ports are greatly improved from 1940 to 1944. I was in one of the Panzer IIIs at Bovvy a few years back and you can see bugger all out of that!

Still it shows just how vulnerable tanks are without good close infantry support.

Suppression Fire can take them out of the game far longer if you aint in a position to take more morale chits!

[Rook]

Having sat in a couple of the tanks at Bovvington I can say visibility is amazingly poor. And I wasn't being thrown around and shrouded in smoke while being shot at. Opening the hatch and sticking your head out would seem to be the best ( if foolish) option.

[Invisible officer]

As a guest in a German Panzerbrigade I had the oportunity to do a short simulator training and a run on the shooting range in the last century. Including one real round against a training target.
With the modern stabilized gun I hit but it was very difficult. The machine is stabilized but not the biological component. No wonder that the US tank crews of WW II often ignored the early stabilizing systems they had and fired standing.

And also a long drive in the country. 50 km/h gives you the feeling to fly. But you come down again and again. In the next night I had the feeling of still driving in that Leopard II. The movement is like a ship on high sea.
Most time I sat in the seat with open hatch. With 1,83 m I have some problems with tanks anyway. The units Oberst was 1,65 m.... The modern tank is like a ball room but the WW II ones I sat in or a modern Russian one...... . Cramped with edges and spikes designed to maim the crew.
WW II tank ventilation was poor at best, another reason to open the hatches. Winkelspiegel sights are usable but nothing compared to the real view. The Periscopes are better but again not perfect.

In Normandy view was very restricted. And with PIAT, Bazooka, Panzerfaust and Ofenrohr tank killers around you need every little advantage of sight to survive. I guess most tank commanders had a fatalistic view, better a hole in the head than burning to death. Like the US M 113 crews in Vietnam. Sitting on top for fear of mines.

[Colonel White]

The main reason why tanks should always ber accompannied by infantry The main reason why Mike in a game Of KGN lost a couple of tanks (including a Tiger) to some hidden PIAT teams

[zedeyejoe]

Yep things like visibility don't have the wow factor that big guns do but are just as important in getting a feel for the real-life combat.