Starting possible Scots Covenanter Army.

[Colonel White]

Just wondering how I would go about forming such an army . I presume everyone is using Black Powder here and  I am eagerly awaiting the supplement.I basically starting from a blank sheet here.and need to know the following. How many should I have in an infantry unit. Ratio of muskets to pikes?How many of these units is an ideal number ?How much cavaly and artillery should I have and what types?Scots frame guns?What is the command structure of this army?The oposition is likely to be the shop Battalia box set army which Brian is currently putting togather for the store.Thanks for your help  

[Stuart]

Colonel, I'm just coming to the end of building my Covenanter army, didn't build it with any set of rules in mind but with enough numbers so I could tweak it to suit different rules. If I remember correctly (and I'm sure if I'm wrong Mr Stallard will correct me), the covenanters were one of the few forces of the time to field full strength units at correct ratios of 2:1 (2 shot - 1 pike), I don't think they had anywhere near the number of horse as their English counter parts, nor were they of the same quality. I started with the Battalia box giving me 3 reg.of foot, 1 reg of horse lancers (12 figs) and a frame gun. I further bolstered the foot with a reg. from Perry plus another of Warlords frame guns. The final figure was a minister, you gotta have some one who can hurl bibles at passers by!!

[SteveMorgan]

Hi ColonelIn the PIke & Shotte supplement each Battalia (Brigade) is composed of a number of units. A small Infantry Battalia could be 3 units, the classic being one pike and two musket units (thus giving you the classic pike supported by wings of musket). This represents the fact that many fighting formations were comprised of a number of regiments.Larger Battalia would contain more units to enable you to imitate various tactical deployments (Swedish, Dutch, Classic Tercio etc.).Standard pike units are 16-24 men, standard musket units 12-16. The usual ratio would be 1 pike unit to 2 musket, although some armies were significantly higher in proportion in pike so the unit componenets of a Battalia can be adjusted to represent this (a Battalia containing 2 pike units and 3 musket units for example).Covenanter armies were generally strong on infantry and artillery, less so cavalry.The cavalry would be, on the whole, very similar to others in the ECW and so be armed with sword and pistols. A few bonnets to replace some helmets would look good. You can also add some units of Scots Lancers for flavour and Dragoons were also widely used.The artillery train would be larger than other ECW armies, and the frame guns were very common.Command structure would be overall commander and a Battalia commander for each Battalia in the army.I hope this helps. We have a bunch of groups playtesting ECW armies and the Pike & Shotte rules. If you would like to take a look, please drop me a line at steve@warlordgames.co.uk Cheers Steve

[charge the guns]

Hi Colonel White.  This is a good army to start with as they fought everybody else at some point of the wars. Inevitably the composition of the army would vary depending on the theatre they were in so I will describe my view of a fairly generic Covenantor force which could form a core for then specialising out in to different areas.Foot regiments would make up the solid base of the army (hope you like painting grey ) .  I would go for a regiment with two 'sleeves' of shot 12 figures in each, and then a pike block of between 12 and 24 figures.  The ideal at the time was for 2 muskets to every pike and there is always endless debate about what ratios were achieved.  I think pike blocks of 18 figures look nice – 3 ranks of 6, and shot in 2 ranks of 6.  So a foot regiment would be (2x12) + 18 =  42 figs.  I believe this will fit with the sizes in the BP supplement.I would aim to get 3 or 4 foot regiments.  For every foot regiment done treat yourself to either one of horse, dragoon, artillery.Horse, 12 figures would be about right.  Lancers look nice, but feel free to have some lance regiments and some with sword and pistols. Dragoons, 12 figures again.  Firelocks rather than matchlocks would be ok.Artillery – lots of scope here as they had a very healthy 'Traine'.  A couple of sakers and a couple of frames for your initial Park.So a nice force of: 4 foot regiments, 2 or 3 horse, a dragoon regiment, and some big bang sticks.As to organisation, all ECW armies followed a failry conservative 1 main body of foot and 2 of horse, the horse being on the wings.  The wings could include some shot detailed off from the foot regiments and of course the dragoons.  Big guns were normally grouped in a main battery in the centre and frames may be supporting the foot regiments.  Within the overal centre plus two wings, there could be further sub-divisions but this would vary by battle and we'll need to see how the BP supplement end up treating commands.  E.g. at Marston Moor it seems that the Scots were had foot brigades of two regiments in each, or enough regiments to make up the size that this should equate to if any regiments were under strength (this was pretty common).With this nice standard force under your belt/sporran you can then strike off to add the more exotic forces such as highlanders of the hairy or non-hairy variety depending how your are feeling.  Hope that helps .

[charge the guns]

Ah - I see my post crossed with that of "Big Steve" who is able to clarify the command thing . Hi Steve - looking forward to seeing the final supplement and giving Marston Moor another go .

[TheGreatMarquis]

I've always been disappointed by references to "Pike Units" and "Shot Units" in the context of ECW rules. Is it not possible to devise rules for ECW units with pike and shotte, like the units that fought the ECW?

[potter]

Well apart from the fact they were my first venture in to ECW (and easy to paint), I went for the Covenanter army as they were (historically) good, reliable, foot troops. Versatile for TYW, Bishops Wars and ECW. Let's face it, they could be any army or any mercenary group from that period.I didn't want to get in to anything to colourful (read as hard to paint) for a first venture, and the plastic being so versatile I found them ideal.As for army lists, I've been at a loss as well.Fields of Glory (which I find ok but not my favourite gaming system) sort of puts me off a little though that is personnal prejudice. The troop lists all seem a little weak and underated, but then I suppose it is as historically accurate as it can be. I seriously think I'd preffer WAB style troop lists though that may be because WHFB, 40k and  later WAB Dark Ages, were all I played for many years. Lots of foot, lots of (smaller) artillery (depending upon which war), some cavalry with pistols and lances (on small but weak nags to quote Cromwell). Sounds like a great Covenanter force to me.So, how does Black Powder compare to FoG, 1644, the ECW and the WAB style rules? FoG puts me off playing to be honest, may be thats why I've gone more to painting forces in playable groups and battalions instead of just nicely painted figs.

[charge the guns]

TheGreatMarquis said:

I've always been disappointed by references to "Pike Units" and "Shot Units" in the context of ECW rules. Is it not possible to devise rules for ECW units with pike and shotte, like the units that fought the ECW?

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 I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here?  If it is that you want a wargaming unit to represent a single 'body' of troops with both pike and shot then I guess that it is necessary to take in to account the bodies that were all shot or all pike as well.And while we're getting upset about things why is it "ECW" when it wasn't English and it wasn't Civil (and they never used three letter abbreviations!).  I prefer "The Great Rebellion" but I think that got used for the Indian Mutiny as well .

[Colonel White]

Thanks very much for your help here guys. I haver printed the material as there appears to be quite a lot to digest.It looks like the best way to start will be from the Scots Battallia  set.Its encouraging hearing from Steve @ Warlord who has given me some pointers in organising the troops in preperation for the release of trhe Pike and Shotte supplement.It does look like an army I can get ready quite quickly as I am considering using Grey Primer as my base colour in conjunction with the Army Painter shades.I do love artillery and its pleasing to note the army should be strong in that respect. My favourite cavalry are in fact dragoons and its also pleasing to note that I can use these as well.

[mikeland]

charge the guns said:

And while we're getting upset about things why is it "ECW" when it wasn't English and it wasn't Civil (and they never used three letter abbreviations!).  I prefer "The Great Rebellion" but I think that got used for the Indian Mutiny as well .

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Also "The Great Rebellion" is only good for the 1st Civil War really, and then it does tend to depend on your view of events as to wether it really was a rebellion or not. Perhaps we could try to cover the whole period and go with "The Wars of the three Kingdoms", Oh but that also refers to a period of Chinese history. Any other bright ideas? (Btw I think Civil refers to the fact that it is fellow citizens of one nation or state at war, possibly from the same root as civilian)