Leather Helm Legionnaire

[Invisible officer]

On Sea leather would not rust, right, it would rot if you would not grease it very often. No real advantage. Weight? Hardened leather thorax armour is not light and not comfortable. It needs a lot of caretaking. It's not like a leather jacket from soft leather. (Or the ECW Buff coat) I have an old long leather coat that I do not wear. It's heavy. And that's the light soft leather.

Leather armour is good if you use scales. Like the Samurai or Horse fighting nations armour. Flexible armour for horsemen. A massive, inflexible, leather thorax has no advantage.

There are much more leather findings from Roman times than the public thinks. Not from fens or deserts only, Vindonissa and other sites produces an astonishing number of findings. But they are thought boring for wide public publication. A sword, helmet or skull photo sells the book, some leather fragments.... Who cares to read the JRS (Journal of Roman studies) or dry reports by excavotors? Only ivory tower nerds like me.

Imperial Roman naval forces 31BC- 500AD is written by whom? D'Amato. He is the modern author that repeats again and again the leather armour story. That he ommits in his 290 page book the name Lindenschmidt shows that he is a, I don't dare to write a fitting word.
He is a specialist for Byzanine studies. In Roman military regards he is an amateur with no high reputation among the ivory tower specialists. He wrote a lot and Osprey gave him a certain public reputation. In academic circles...... .

He states on p. 160 in his 2009 book that the archers are clad in long leather corselets. Bad news for the warlord sculptors, the foundry ones and the ones from XYZ . Not to forget the late Robinson and most of my fellows. And not to forget the gamers that field the Eastern archers.

His simple (and only) argument is: Smooth surface on sculpture is leather. And that the sculptors show exactly what was worn. Painted deatails, no.

You find leather armour mostly in societies that have limited metal industrial power or that field gigantic armies. Resources and costs, that's why it was used. The moment the Roman state started to equip the miles the equipment changed to 1st rate metal armour.

[zedeyejoe]

The Buff coats worn by ECW soldiers often protected them from sword, pike or longer range bullet wounds. By the later 1640's many cavalry troopers had done away with any kind of metal armour in favour of buff coats, due to the lightened load and ease of movement. This is just one of many examples of leather armour throughout the ages. So it is as much of a reasonable guess as any to say they could have had leather equipment.

Excellent point. I did think about the ECW but decided not to use it as it was out of period. Any material has its uses in the right place.

[Cubster]

I think the likelihood of some leather armour being used for non-frontline duties is likely, if only for cost and convenience purposes. After all, professional soldiers throughout history have always had one uniform for war and another for peacetime duties. It seems logical to me that a legionary on duty in a quiet corner of the empire wouldn't always be wearing their full (expensive) kit, including full metal armour.

Having said that, I do recall a TV programme about Trajan's column and the Dacian campaign where it dispelled the myth about leather breastplates on statues. If I recall correctly, I think the chainmail texture was applied onto a stone statue with plaster, because it was easier to mould that way. Over time the plaster had worn off, leaving a smooth surface that was taken as depicting leather.

[zedeyejoe]

Indeed I have read that the Western legions - essentially fighting all the time - considered Eastern legions 'soft'.

Indeed Vegetius complains about the state of soldiers in 'his day'

From the foundation of the city till the reign of the Emperor Gratian, the foot wore cuirasses and helmets. But negligence and sloth having by degrees introduced a total relaxation of discipline, the soldiers began to think their armor too heavy, as they seldom put it on. They first requested leave from the Emperor to lay aside the cuirass and afterwards the helmet. In consequence of this, our troops in their engagements with the Goths were often overwhelmed with their showers of arrows. Nor was the necessity of obliging the infantry to resume their cuirasses and helmets discovered, notwithstanding such repeated defeats, which brought on the destruction of so many great cities.

Troops, defenseless and exposed to all the weapons of the enemy, are more disposed to fly than fight. What can be expected from a foot-archer without cuirass or helmet, who cannot hold at once his bow and shield; or from the ensigns whose bodies are naked, and who cannot at the same time carry a shield and the colors? The foot soldier finds the weight of a cuirass and even of a helmet intolerable. This is because he is so seldom exercised and rarely puts them on.

But the case would be quite different, were they even heavier than they are, if by constant practice he had been accustomed to wear them. But it seems these very men, who cannot support the weight of the ancient armor, think nothing of exposing themselves without defense to wounds and death, or, which is worse, to the shame of being made prisoners, or of betraying their country by flight; and thus to avoid an inconsiderable share of exercise and fatigue, suffer themselves ignominiously to be cut in pieces. With what propriety could the ancients call the infantry a wall, but that in some measure they resembled it by the complete armor of the legionary soldiers who had shields, helmets, cuirasses, and greaves of iron on the right leg; and the archers who had gauntlets on the left arm. These were the defensive arms of the legionary soldiers. Those who fought in the first line of their respective legions were called principes, in the second hastati, and in third triarii.

The triarii, according to their method of discipline, rested in time of action on one knee, under cover of their shields, so that in this position they might be less exposed to the darts of the enemy than if they stood upright; and also, when there was a necessity for bringing them up, that they might be fresh, in full vigor and charge with the greater impetuosity. There have been many instances of their gaining a complete victory after the entire defeat of both the principes and hastati.

The ancients had likewise a body of light infantry, slingers, and ferentarii (the light troops), who were generally posted on the wings and began the engagement. The most active and best disciplined men were selected for this service; and as their number was not very great, they easily retired in case of a repulse through the intervals of the legion, without thus occasioning the least disorder in the line.

The Pamonian leather caps worn by our soldiers were formerly introduced with a different design. The ancients obliged the men to wear them at all times so that being constantly accustomed to have the head covered they might be less sensible of the weight of the helmet.

http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/ ... e03.php#18

[feanor65]

The soldier is a elastolin a gift from my grandmother in 1973.What interested me most is the leather helmet.I do not think that the Roman legionnaires, the daily service in Palestine ,temperature to 50 degrees, they used metal armor or helmets imperial.It would be roasted.This helmet, jockey style, perhaps this sculpture is reproduced in
.
Maybe a helmet was used for normal daily service.

[zedeyejoe]

I know that one,
http://www.3vwargames.co.uk/rules2.htm

Its extra armour - we are told for the Dacian war - reinforced helmet, greaves for the legs and arm protection.

[Invisible officer]

Hot temperature and open faced helmets are no problem. For centuries soldiers of many different armies wore them.

The Victorian style Elastolin miniature is a toy, an expensive one compared to other makers, but nothing more. Keep it to remember your grandmother's gift but don't take it as anything similar to a correct reconstruction.

The cross bar / Spangenhelm variations are not associated with leather or ventilation but just a simpler construction. For a complete one piece calotte you need a lot of work experience, one harder hit and you have a hole. It's easier to produce the calotte in segments and connect them with bars that even add extra strenghth like a firemen's helm ridge. That was very useful against the Dacian falces.

Vegetius is no source for 1st / 2nd century, he wrote from a distance of nearly 300 years. Imagin someone writing in 2011 about 1711. And he mostly wrote about his "earlier" times, the 3rd century. Contrary to public believe there was constant change in ancient military. That late Roman troops wore less armour was caused as much by the economic crisis as by tactical changes.

Cubster is correct stating the adding of plaster, paints and metal parts to Roman sculptures. The Victorian image of ancient towns full of white marble art works is a dream, often repeated in movies. Reality was very different, an explosion of colours. Everything was painted in loud colours ans styles we would claim to be .........

D'Amato himself claims on p. 225 for the Ravenna stela the colours used. He also claims for the officers on the sarcophagus found by Tanzilli a leather thorax but on same page 224 he mentions the only finding of an officer's naval thorax near Cueva in a wreck. Made of bronze. Looking like the ones on the sarcophagus.

[zedeyejoe]

And indeed that extra armour look is available from Warlord as Veterans
http://store.warlordgames.com/imperial- ... -506-p.asp

[feanor65]

Mine was just a curiosity on a helmet for this typical encounter the historical reality.The soldier I served only to show the helmet. I thought it was a helmet light used by the legionaries in the normal routine.I was also struck by the fact that you use it in Zeffirelli's Jesus to represent the Roman soldiers.


That Roman knight seem to have a helmet like that.

[zedeyejoe]

Films unfortunately are the worst places to ideas about history - all has to be done to a price and please an audience.