Sengoku period Supplement (1467-1573)

[revan81]

Not sure to put sengoku period on black powder supplement (as they are too much focus on shooting) or Hail caesar (too much focus on close combat) but I think sengoku period are good supplement for pike and shotte, seems it fitting as the rules were made on 14th-17th century warfare with balance combination of shoot and close combat.
I know this is just some kind of wishlist/suggestion, but I see the nice perry range on samurai sengoku and I also a fan on sengoku musou games (samurai warriors in english version) I hope that original author will delve on this particular warfare and create a list on how each daimyou fight (oda nobunaga with ashigaru 'repeating' rifle technique, takeda shingen with mass cavalry charge, etc) and I maybe not receive the pike and shotte book yet (though already order it) , Hoping for a rules where commander will take the fight themselves And hope for plastic samurai box starter from warlord (or perry's :p )

[SteveMorgan]

We did originally toy with the idea of including some Japanese stuff in the book (although a little later with the Korean invasion) but decided it was a step too far....Yari & Arquebus didn't seem to have the same ring as Pike & Shotte
It is a period we would like to cover, but it definitely would deserve its own book. With some work you should be able to use the Pike & Shotte book for some games though, it would be interesting to see how you get on and what army lists you put together.
Cheers
Steve

[jazbo]

Sengoku warfare is perfect for Hail Caesar. It was very melee-focused as a period, don't be fooled by the handguns. Just make the Ashigaru-Yumi and Ashigaru-Teppo skirmishers and away you go. I posted some HC stats and ideas in a pdf in the HC forum a while back.

[revan81]

@steve
indeed it would be but I've yet to receive the pike and shotte book, being living in overseas If I do need to make a list, I really want to make commander 'who would actually fight' rather than contributing attacks to their units, it just reflect the sengoku warfare at that time and very often commander in each opposing side would have personal battle on the battlefield (takeda shingen and uesugi kenshin would be one) but I guess that's make very different game ain't it

@jazbo
where's the pdf but musket (and cannons) do make a lot in sengoku period particularly employed by Oda clan (succeded by toyotomi clan who employ same tactics) so can't really make that close to hail caesar either.

[jazbo]

HI

The thread is here:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4372 and the link to the pdf is in it somewhere. The pdf says black powder samurai, that's a typo, it is meant for HC, but originally I tried it with BP. You could up the staminas to 6 for normal and 4 for small units as the staminas are a little brittle. There are notes at the bottom for period flavour such as offensive and defensive stances in personal combats.

Do not get fixated on the firearms, this was a period of close combat warfare, cannon were few in number and even matchlocks accounted only for around 10% of an army. Also, Nagae-Yari were NOT pikemen but offensive spearmen with a drill to repel cavarly (remembering that cavalry were barely employed after Nagashino).

HC is a perfect fit as it makes you maintain battlelines to maximise support attacks and is melee focused.

[irondog]

The Samurai of this era going to say 1613 (siege of
Osaka). Would NOT I say again Not fit in the pike and shotte era. Very few battles had artillery; and the ones that did the artillery was inmobile. Senkhara in 1600 had only a couple of pieces. Sieges in this peroid were ended using massed teppo fire, starvation, storming, trickery, or one of the favorite tactics, fire. With a wood castle fire was a real fear.
Even though some yari were pike length (which varied by clan), they were trained more as anti cavalry and there was still a lot of stress of man vs man combat. So no pike blocks like you see in the west. Units were organized by type. Be it missile, melee, or Samurai. The missile troops could be either teppo or yumi or both. Yumi were mixed with teppo to keep up rate of fire while the teppo reloaded. Both Samurai and Ashigaru used yari. I have not been able to find out if yari were mixed with the fearsome naganata. I would think not since this is like a halberd and it would get in the way of yari. It fell out of service with everyone but the warrior monks.

A good rule of thumb in organizing your samurai armies is as follows 1/3 ashigaru missile troops, 1/3 ashigaru yari troops, and 1/3 samurai. As you get deeper in the period you get less and less yumi. Also samurai stopped using the bow and stop becoming mounted. At Senikhara a Samurai showed up with a yumi and it was a surprise he brought such a "old" weapon.

[revan81]

guess we need sengoku personal rulebooks.. the Sword of Samurai :p ( I know it doesn't have the ring of it)

[irondog]

The Yahoo group on Hail Ceaser is pretty close from what I have studied. The changes I have made are as follows from the yahoo files:

1) Ninja: NO! get a comic book. If you want to paint a Ninja treat them as a sniper as in pike and shotte.
2) Ronin: There were never units of Ronin. In a era of constant warfare trained samurai not finding gainful employment was not common. Whole units would change sides after there lord was lost. Ronin are best used for skirmish games
3) I am going to change the Nagainata/No Dachi stat to more like the halberd attack in HC. there first attack is better but sustained is less
4) Artillery is never required as it was rare and expensive. But some clans would have the possibility of naval support from Portuguese.
5) Limit 1 Hatamato per army. They should stay near the main Daiymo only only used as as last resort or as a finishing blow to the enemy. Think of the as the Old Guard.

I have 300+ Perry and have run many games and found this period a blast. The only problem with the period is I am the only one in the Chicago area with Samurai armies. So I doubt there will be a book on it.

[jazbo]

"There were never units of Ronin."

Didn't the Toyotomi clan use large numbers in the Osaka campaign?

[revan81]

man, could somebody provide information where I can get listing of order of battle for each clan (Oda, Uesugi, takeda, toyotomi (after nobunaga death), tokugawa, sanada, azai, etc, etc) involve on sengoku period. It's very hard searching it by myself I'm trying to compile a list of possible unit.