Cat amongst the pigeons - forming hedgehog!

[SteveMorgan]

Hi
This was the area of the game that had the most playtesting, as its pretty crucial to the feel of the game.
For infantry to charge in the front of a pike block they have to set up the charge the turn before within range of any 'sleeves' of shot, so they would have a chance of being shot at and disordered. If cavalry want to charge a formed pike block to the front, they can but it would be messy.
The defending player will have ample opportunity to hedgehog in his turn instead....that is a key decision to make. Can the opponent co-ordinate his attacks well enough? As supports are separate command rolls an infantry unit that manages to avoid being shot up the turn before can engage the pike to the front, but there is a chance they will be isolated if other charges and supports don't come in.
The example of infantry and cavalry co-ordinating to attack would be nasty, but is rather more tricky and was actually potent when it came off...hence the need for cavalry to stop enemy cavalry from doing just that to the poor footsloggers.
The idea of allowing units avoiding combat by seeking to hedgehog actively moving into a combat didn't sit well at all, and we couldn't see a pike unit engaged in combat obligingly opening its ranks to allow friendly units to hedgehog with them...they would be a little pre-occupied.
Anyway, those are the justifications for the rules as they play. I'm sure some will disagree, but at least the motives for the rule are there.
Cheers
Steve

[jazbo]

Hi Steve

Could you clarify this bit please:

"For infantry to charge in the front of a pike block they have to set up the charge the turn before within range of any 'sleeves' of shot, so they would have a chance of being shot at and disordered. "

Unless I am missing something, you could start 18" away, roll three under your command and charge straight into a pike block without incurring any fire at all from sleeves of shot who could well be up to 6" from it and facing another direction, or have other priority targets.

To me this encourages people to go after the "mother ships" that the pike blocks appear to be.

Hate to say it but I suspect I will be just putting sleeves of shot with a pike block to make a single unit under the game, and the hedgehog roll will be for that whole unit on receiving a charge. Otherwise, apart from the picking off tactics against pikeblocks, I can see an odd situation where we have a Regiments musketeers wandering around without care in the world despite the fact their pikemen are broken and fleeing the field.

[jazbo]

Also, I noticed you said:

"As supports are separate command rolls"

That made me remember that in the rules there is a new diagram saying that a support would have to roll seperately.

But is there anything explicit in the text that says charging units have to have a seperate order to a unit moving to support them?

Certainly we have always played that if two from a brigade charge and the other two fulfill the group move criteria, then moving up to support them is a single order.

"It is important that the battalia order is essentially one order.....all moving to engage the enemy". That too me would allow a unit from a battalia to actually charge while others move with it to support it, all with one order.

[red]

Hi Steve

Could you clarify this bit please:

"For infantry to charge in the front of a pike block they have to set up the charge the turn before within range of any 'sleeves' of shot, so they would have a chance of being shot at and disordered. "

Unless I am missing something, you could start 18" away, roll three under your command and charge straight into a pike block without incurring any fire at all from sleeves of shot who could well be up to 6" from it and facing another direction, or have other priority targets.

To me this encourages people to go after the "mother ships" that the pike blocks appear to be.

I've participated in modified Black Powder games where this situation has occurred.
The most memorable being where the Parliamentarian directly opposite me (Mike Target) gave his first Brigade order "ADVANCE!" at 24" and promptly rolled 3 moves.
He never quite recovered from the full weight of my muskets at 6"...
Of course we had Pike and Shotte regiments as single units whereas this separates them.
Anticipating an attack from 18" (or even 27") away might be unfamiliar to some but after a while you get used to it.
We did have a rather lengthy discussion on whether or not to ban the 'Follow Me!' order but it eventually passed.

[SteveMorgan]

Hi Jazbo

Not a problem. In order to attempt a charge from 18'' you will have been in range of the enemy musket (range 18'') for at least one shooting phase which gives the opportunity of disorders/damage in the defending player's shooting phase....that is if they decide not to hedgehog (in which case they could still shoot but with less effect).
Certainly going after the pike is an option, but they are tougher than the musket.
A concern that some had was that the musket would be targeted and the pike ignored...I guess this is a completely opposite way of looking at it, which I guess is good given that there are a number of ways to tackle the problem.

The biggest issue I have with combined units of pike and musket is that is can make cavalry redundant completely. I have played in games, and many of the early playtest games where the units were mixed, where a defending player decided to forego cavalry and set up infantry in one thin line from table edge to table edge. No flanks for cavalry to attack, no way they could charge front on....basically they were useless. Unfortunately this 'gamers solution' was not restricted to the odd game, and made the games play in a way that bore no similarity to the period.
On the other hand, I am quite happy for people to adjust the rules in any way that makes them more enjoyable to the gamers, in the same way that Black Powder has been adapted by many and I'm sure P&S will be too.

Hope you enjoy your games, however you decide to play this situation out.

Cheers
Steve

[red]

Hi Jazbo

Not a problem. In order to attempt a charge from 18'' you will have been in range of the enemy musket (range 18'') for at least one shooting phase which gives the opportunity of disorders/damage in the defending player's shooting phase....that is if they decide not to hedgehog (in which case they could still shoot but with less effect).

Cheers
Steve

Or launch the attack from the other side of a hill... That's lots of fun.

If a player decides to deploy an army from table edge to table edge, get a bigger table!

[jazbo]

Thanks for the reply Steve. Could you shed some light on my orders question as well please?

[jazbo]

Actually, just found it. Page 62. That is an interesting and explicit change of orders.

[Jammers]

Actually, just found it. Page 62. That is an interesting and explicit change of orders.

I do like this change. Charging could well be a lottery - perhaps you try to put your support in place first before the charge(s)

[Chilledenuff]

Unless, of course, you can't charge the pike because the shotte are in the way