Closing fire casualties

[Grossi]

Hi,
We had a situation we can't work out:
A defending unit was charged by two units. The defending unit at the start of the Hand-to-hand inflicted 1 casualty by Closing Fire which caused one of the charging units to Break. But the other unit inflicted more casualties in Hand-to-Hand fighting. Did the casualty from the Closing Fire on the broken unit count towards the Hand-to-Hand result?

[Big Al]

No. Casualties caused by closing fire do not count in hand to hand combat resolution. They do count toward any break test that is taken after combat though. However, in the case that you have mentioned, the unit that took the casualty didn't fight, so it wouldn't count either.

Combat would be resolved as normal and the losing side would be determined and would have to take a break test. The casualties caused by closing fire are added at this point which might affect the break test because the unit might now be shaken and suffer a penalty on the break test.

Similarly, if the combat is drawn, the only units that would need to take a break test would be those that were shaken. The casualties from closing fire might cause a unit in a drawn combat to become shaken and so force a break test.

[ady2650]

What Big Al said

[Greenjacket]

mmm Its not terribly clear. But I think the answer is that closing fire (and other charge responses) takes place in the Command phase when the charging units are moved. Once that is finished, in the Hand-to-Hand Combat phase later in the turn a 'combat engagment' takes place. After that, results are worked out, which tally up casualties from the combat. But the casualties from the closing fire are in the Command phase. But its not terribly clear.

[jazbo]

"They do count toward any break test that is taken after combat though."

Only if caused by artillery though I think?

[Big Al]

It's perfectly clear. The rules state that closing fire is executed when the charging unit engages the defending unit. So it happens when the chargers are make contact with the target unit. Any required break test is then taken and acted upon, Page 51 second paragraph under Closing Fire.

@Jazbo - What about when the closing fire results cause excess caualties when added to any combat result? -1 to the dice roll for each excess casualty, I believe.

[jazbo]

Hi Al

Could you point me to where it says closing fire casualties count for post melee break tests, other than artillery, I have scanned the book but can't see it. All I can find is the reference to -1 for artillery test a/b (or words to that effect).

[Big Al]

Hi Al

Could you point me to where it says closing fire casualties count for post melee break tests, other than artillery, I have scanned the book but can't see it. All I can find is the reference to -1 for artillery test a/b (or words to that effect).

Right, first of all a unit that charges and takes casualties from closing fire must test if they become shaken from that closing fire and count as being in combat, not shooting, when they test. This will happen even if they only take a single casualty if that casualty makes them Shaken. Page 70 under Tests from Closing Fire.

Secondly, Casualties from closing fire do not count towards combat resolution. However, if the chargers lose the combat (or draw, but are shaken), there are a number of things that are taken into account for the test. One of them is the total number of casualties they have, which will include any casualties that they are carrying, whether caused in a previous engagement or shooting of any kind, including closing fire during the combat which resulted in the need for the current test. If that total exceeds their stamina value, then there is a -1 for each casualty in excess of the unit's stamina. Page 71 under the title The Break Test, first line in bold "-1 Excess Casualties.

It does not mention Closing Fire specifically, but then, I didn't say that it did. Closing fire casualties don't count toward the melee result, but if a combat is drawn, any shaken units involved must test. If the unit lost, it will test and all the casualties in place are counted. The excess is only removed after the test has been taken. If you remove them before, then there will never be any excess casualties.

[ady2650]

Hi Al

Could you point me to where it says closing fire casualties count for post melee break tests, other than artillery, I have scanned the book but can't see it. All I can find is the reference to -1 for artillery test a/b (or words to that effect).

Right, first of all a unit that charges and takes casualties from closing fire must test if they become shaken from that closing fire and count as being in combat, not shooting, when they test. This will happen even if they only take a single casualty if that casualty makes them Shaken. Page 70 under Tests from Closing Fire.

Secondly, Casualties from closing fire do not count towards combat resolution. However, if the chargers lose the combat (or draw, but are shaken), there are a number of things that are taken into account for the test. One of them is the total number of casualties they have, which will include any casualties that they are carrying, whether caused in a previous engagement or shooting of any kind, including closing fire during the combat which resulted in the need for the current test. If that total exceeds their stamina value, then there is a -1 for each casualty in excess of the unit's stamina. Page 71 under the title The Break Test, first line in bold "-1 Excess Casualties.

It does not mention Closing Fire specifically, but then, I didn't say that it did. Closing fire casualties don't count toward the melee result, but if a combat is drawn, any shaken units involved must test. If the unit lost, it will test and all the casualties in place are counted. The excess is only removed after the test has been taken. If you remove them before, then there will never be any excess casualties.

This is a good debate , As I saw it the charging unit would suffer closing fire and if that causes it to be shaken any excess casualties as well as the other factors (casualties from artillery etc etc) are taken into account, if the test is passed any excess casualties are removed and the combat is fought. if the unit loses or draws the combat then it again takes a test, any excess casualties again taken into account, but those excess casualties could have only come from the combat.

[Big Al]

That's correct. However, lets say that the charging unit had a casualty prior to charging, then takes three more from closing fire and passes the break test, the excess casualty is removed after the test. It then goes on to lose the combat and must test again. To lose the combat the unit must have taken at least one casualty, probably more. Let's assume it took 3 casualties. When it tests, it was already shaken, thanks to closing fire, so it takes a break test with a -1 for being shaken and a further -3 for excess casualties. Any casualty above the unit's stamina is an excess and if a unit is shaken it has reached its stamina level in casualties. So, this unfortunate unit will suffer a -4 to the break test roll all because it took three casualties from closing fire, or anywhere else for that matter. If the combat had been a draw, it would have tested with the same result because the unit was shaken.

It only illustrates how closing fire can affect the post melee break test, which is what Jazbo asked. If a unit is shaken after closing fire, you only remove the excess, not the three. If there were only two casualties caused by closing fire, they would remain with the unit. They wouldn't count towards combat resolution, but would be added to the casualties caused in combat to determine the modifiers used in the break test.