Attic Helmets

[Biggus Dickus]

Hi everyone, my first post and having some trouble registering (Emails are not being sent to me with password so have to stay as a guest?) I've got quite a nice collection of Warlord Romans now (and painted up!) and being very interested in all things Ancient Greek and Roman i'm becoming quite a historian with all my new reference books!Things I've discovered came as qute a shock, That mainly we don't know very much about the Romans at all and what is known is largely based on some limited Archaeology and of course Pompeii and Herculanium (Sorry for any spelling errors, i'm away from my books!!!) Of course Trajan's column provides, it seems, our most accurate model with all the funeary stone carvings being very useful to back up the column.My Main bone of contention for the purposes of this ramble is that "Experts" believe everything they see on Trajan's column as fact whether or not there is any evidence to support it or not....and that's fine........Except for one thing, and one thing only.......Attic helmets.Just because they haven't found any remains they, the "so called Experts" say they are there for "artistic purposes only" I say for one that is is nonsense.....who would go to the trouble of carving all that accurate stuff and then decide to go all "artistic" on the helmets......sorry but it doesn't add up.So as for Trajan's column depiction of Praetorians with Attic helmets..........well i'm satisfied that the odds are they are depicting the actual uniform of Praetorians..........so please, Please, please for the sake of historical odds on fact.......Warlord could we have a sprue of Attic helmets like those on Trajan's column....with feathers so we can convert our Praetorians??? Anyone wanting to see Trajans column can go to the V&A museum in London for the copy, if they can't get to Rome to see it in the flesh.....it is extremely interesting. 

[Paul @ Warlord Games]

Biggus Dickus said:

Hi everyone, my first post and having some trouble registering (Emails are not being sent to me with password so have to stay as a guest?) 

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 Drop me a line at paul@warlordgames.co.uk and I'll sort that out for you.Cheers,Paul

[Biggus Dickus]

Many thanks Paul, all sorted!!

[Phil]

There is a lot that's good about Trajan's column - loads of useful information.  But you do need to remember that it was erected for one purpose - propaganda!  As I say, it is useful, but it's apparent that the artists stuck to a series of 'conventions' - for instance, one can tell which soldiers are legionaries by the fact that they're wearing segmented armour, as opposed to auxiliaries who wear mail.Other evidence - for instance from archaeology, and from another, almost equally important, monument, the Tropaeum Traiani at Adamclisi in Romania, paints a less uniform picture.  On the attic helmets, well, maybe, maybe not.  Personally, I'd be happy to have some if I was painting more Praetorians.  There seems to have been a tradition regarding the Praetorians - either they really did use 'antiquated' equipment (oval scuta, attic helmets, etc) or else it was a convention to depict them that way.  For wargaming, in a sense, it doesn't matter - you can build your armies to be 'realistic' (and perhaps make them a bit 'rag-tag'), or you can choose to 'follow the column' and go for the uniform approach, with each troop-type having its own distinctive appearance.  In the latter case, using Attic helmets, whether or not the experts believe they wore them, is a valid approach to modelling the Praetorians.Phil

[Biggus Dickus]

Thanks Phil, intersting to hear your views on the matter, I'd imagine that yes the sculpter is using stereotypical representations to illustrate the troop types, this makes it easier for everyone to know what's going on at glance, I'd agree that it's stylised to a point, real armies have a mix of kit at all times, so would always look a bit rag tag in the real world....in reality Auxilieries would have looked pretty much like Legionaires and vice versa. Perhaps in the field Praetorians would have worn the latest military equipment much like the S.S. in world war 2 (Black uniforms not too practical), perhaps attic helmets were parade ground/guard duty kit.....like bearskins are today.I just think that if that's how the Romans want to depict Praetorians then perhaps we should too...or at least have a choice!.......that's 2 for Attic helmets for Praetorians then!!!! Come on Warlord, lets have an Attic sprue!!!

[Gibbo]

My limited information, all gleaned from books, is the one given above that artistic license helped people work out who was who on the column. My books are getting a little old now, much like me, but it seems that up to the point at which they were written only one brow plate and one cheek piece that may have come from a Roman Attic helmet had been identified by an expert, albeit in the 70's. I'm a fan of the less uniform approach to armies of this period, with auxiliary troops being given access to the pilum and scutum, and Attic helmets would just offer me more variation.I'll be using an eclectic mix of figures when i get round to the Roman troops to ally with my Pontics, and I just wish there were a few mail shirted legionaries bodies in plastic. References for EIR are much better than for the Pontic armies, with some of the warriors relying on brief entries in Xenophon's Annabasis... So yeah, go Roman Attic lids.......  

[Biggus Dickus]

Gibbo said:

My limited information, all gleaned from books, is the one given above that artistic license helped people work out who was who on the column. My books are getting a little old now, much like me, but it seems that up to the point at which they were written only one brow plate and one cheek piece that may have come from a Roman Attic helmet had been identified by an expert, albeit in the 70's. I'm a fan of the less uniform approach to armies of this period, with auxiliary troops being given access to the pilum and scutum, and Attic helmets would just offer me more variation.I'll be using an eclectic mix of figures when i get round to the Roman troops to ally with my Pontics, and I just wish there were a few mail shirted legionaries bodies in plastic. References for EIR are much better than for the Pontic armies, with some of the warriors relying on brief entries in Xenophon's Annabasis... So yeah, go Roman Attic lids.......  

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 Gibbo, Thanks for the thumbs Up,Your Roman troops sound like they will have a very interesting look to them....Hopefully you'll post some pictures.Certainly converting Warlords Auxiliaries into Legionaires is easy enough, that should help with chain mail to a degree.....Personally i was hoping for Plastic box set of Roman Marines with scale armour and some muscle cuirass.....using all three sets would make a very realistic looking Legion......if only dreams would come true!!!!!! This is a big perhaps!!!!......but it would be really handy for warlord to do a Plastic box set of conversion pieces for Romans .....Bodies with armour variations of the above...additional pilum and shields, head variations  (ATTIC !!!!)...optio heads, cloaks, standards etc! I think that a lot of people would buy these sets (and buy lot's of them) to convert the existing sets into something more customised.....I think it would really work. (Well it does for me) There is nothing wrong with what Warlord have out at the moment, I think they are fantastic, but more variation would be extremely interesting....am i just being greedy?Surely at that point there would be something for everyone to chop and change to their hearts content......maybe we need a new topic as i seem to have hijacked my own hahahahha...ok for anyone interested in the conversion parts suggestion...I'll make a new topic now! under the title...........Plastic Roman Conversion box set!

[Paul @ Warlord Games]

I'm sure we can manage a sprue of metal Attic-helmeted heads in the near future...Cheers,Paul

[Biggus Dickus]

Paul Sawyer said:

I'm sure we can manage a sprue of metal Attic-helmeted heads in the near future...Cheers,Paul

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 That's brilliant  many thanks Paul, I'll have to buy another box of Praetorians aswell now!!!I'm sure you've got a copy....Osprey Elite Praetorian guard 2002 reprint (i think)..Attic helmet with feathers on cover!!!...can't wait!

[Paul @ Warlord Games]

I have on my desk four freshly sculpted Attic-helmeted heads.Will get them in a mould and up on the webstore just as soon as we can...Cheers,Paul