Disorder Penalty

[guthroth]

Hi

This has probably been discussed before but ...

In our first BP game tonight, a unit of cavalry was ordered to charge a unit of infantry, which was in line in the open. (The charged unit had another infantry unit beside it which was in a town so immune from being charged.) The charged unit passed its 'square' test so the cavalry stopped 3 inches short.

In my opponants next move, he fired the square and the unit in the town at the cavalry and scored one hit, which they failed to save, but because he rolled a 6 the cavalry were disordered. No problem so far.

According to our reading, in my next turn, I can't move at all, and I can't rally because of the disorder marker. Despite the logic whereby the cavalry should withdraw from the formed square, I have to sit there into my opponants next move when he forms line (using initiative) with the unit in square and again both units blaze away. Another 5 dice means there is an 83% chance of another disorder so again I cannot move away ...

This seems perverse at best.

Can someone tell me if we did it wrong ?

Pete

[Big Al]

Hi Guthroth

The Disorder thing is correct. The disorder can only be removed at the end of your own turn, even if the disorder happened during that same turn. Now, I know what you're saying about the cavalry and that they should be allowed to withdraw, but this game is more concerned with Command and Control and that is why you can't move the cavalry. Eventually, it will need to take a break test, just because it will become shaken and will then move regardless of disorder.

However, when the infantry formed square, your cavalry don't just stop 3 inches away. They also get to use the remainder of their move distance (if there's any left) to move back the way they came, beyond the square, or any other direction else you like from that point. No, it won't take them outside the range of the muskets, but it might take them out of Line of Sight of some of the infantry, or it might put them in a position where they may find some protection and support from friendly units.

Secondly, I know that the square can reform into line, but would they do so when a unit of cavalry is so close, taking the risk of not being able to form square for the next charge? Don't forget the LOS thing as well. Depending on where you placed the cavalry after using the rest of their move, when the infantry reforms into line, it may block LOS from the infantry in the building, so they won't be able to fire!

Yes it can happen, but then you could argue that you shouldn't have sent a single unit of cavalry in on its own. Cavalry isn't that good and can often be beaten by infantry not in square. As I have said, the combat isn't the most important thing in this game, it is Command and Control. If you can stop your opponent from doing what he wants to while you do what you want to, you win.

[guthroth]

Hi

Three things spring to mind reading your reply -

1. The concept of using the balance of the cavalry move to retire never occured. The critical question therefore is, at what distance do the infantry test for square ?

2. Suggesting the infantry might not change into line with cavalry so close is simply not looking at the actual situation. The cavalry are disordered. There is no question of them charging.

3. Where does it say a shaken disordered unit can move ?

4. I still think it's patent nonsense not to allow a damaged disordered cavalry unit to move away from a formed square ...

Pete

[Big Al]

1. The concept of using the balance of the cavalry move to retire never occured. The critical question therefore is, at what distance do the infantry test for square ?

The Infantry react to the charge at the start of the charge move. The charge move is the last move which would bring the cavalry into contact. So, if the infantry is just over one move away, then two moves are required and the charge move is the second move. See the last paragraph on Page 75, just before the title "Units With the 'Form Square' Special Rule". it tells you there about what you can do after the 3 inches.

2. Suggesting the infantry might not change into line with cavalry so close is simply not looking at the actual situation. The cavalry are disordered. There is no question of them charging.

True, but at the end of your turn, the cavalry are no longer disordered and might not be when shot at by your opponent and then the infantry will have to risk the test again.

3. Where does it say a shaken disordered unit can move ?

Read the Break Test results. If a unit fails a brake test, it obey the test results regardless of their status. The only other time it can move while disordered is if it is victorious in combat (see page 69 "Fall Back").

4. I still think it's patent nonsense not to allow a damaged disordered cavalry unit to move away from a formed square ...

That's up to you and it is a view shared by a few. However, I view it as just being a little unlucky or just poor generalship, putting your unit in such a situation without support. I've done it myself and thought "How stupid are you?" but I've learned my lesson and try to make sure that it doesn't happen again. So far it hasn't.

[ScottWashburn]

I see nothing in the rules that say a disordered unit can't move. Since a disordered can shoot and fight in hand-to-hand combat (at a penalty) I see no reason why it can't move.

[HobbitMiles]

To Scott: Page 48-9. Disordered units cannot receive any kind of order or act on thier initiative. As a unit can only move upon receipt of an order or on its initiative a disordered unit can't move - unless forced to do so by a break test as Al said above.

To Guthroth: think of your squadrons of horse as being thrown into each other and being in absolute chaos. While material damage may be low the men are milling around looking for officers. Sure, they could move off on thier own initiative, but which way? The ranks are trying to redress and re-establish some sort of order. I think BP needs a slightly different mindset to many other sets of rules, and the key is to avoid putting your horse in a position where they can be volleyed off by the infantry in the first place.

[guthroth]

Hang on here.

This is a rules mechanics issue, not a battlefield tactics one.

Infantry with SB muskets are deployed in line within charge range of a unit of Lancers. Under which military system is this NOT a valid manuver ?

If you are suggesting the rules are deliberatly written to make this sort of manuver unviable then BP is seriously broken ....

Secondly, Big Al you are being disingenious at best. A forced compulsory retirement is not the same as moving and it is wrong of you to suggest otherwise.

I sense a pro-infantry prejudice here.

Pete

[Big Al]

Hang on here.

This is a rules mechanics issue, not a battlefield tactics one.

Infantry with SB muskets are deployed in line within charge range of a unit of Lancers. Under which military system is this NOT a valid manuver ?

If you are suggesting the rules are deliberatly written to make this sort of manuver unviable then BP is seriously broken ....

Secondly, Big Al you are being disingenious at best. A forced compulsory retirement is not the same as moving and it is wrong of you to suggest otherwise.

I sense a pro-infantry prejudice here.

Pete

No I'm not! I haven't suggested that a forced retirement is the same as movement. I have just told you what the rules are. If you are talking about the final part of my post, that was just a little example of what has happened to me in the past and how I learned from it. You can ignore it if you want, it wasn't meant as a slight on anyone at all.

I wasn't suggesting that infantry deploying into line from square wasn't a valid manouevre, just a risky one. I didn't say that you couldn't do it! I also suggested that you could have placed your cavalry in a position that would reduce the effect of the infantry fire when and if the infantry reformed into line. How is that telling you that deploying into line isn't valid? It isn't.

Remember that, while this isn't a question about tactics, you didn't think to continue your cavalry's movement beyond them halting 3 inches away from the square and it is written in the same sentence in the book. Your cavalry might not have been in such an awkward place had you done so.

In BP you can do whatever you want. It will punish you for getting it wrong and reward you for getting it right. If you play a few times and think something is wrong you can change it, but what I have often found is that there isn't much if anything that does need changing. The biggest bone of contention is whether or not 2 attack columns should be allowed to charge a single unit in line. There is another discussion thread on that subject and it comes up on the Yahoo Group too!

[HobbitMiles]

Gentlemen, may I suggest that everyone pours themselves a decent glass of port, takes a deep draft from a good cigar and retires to read the first paragraph of the 2nd column of page 74 specifically the last sentence.

If this fails to resolve the issue I have a decent pair of pistols that I am only too happy to make available to you at 7.30am behind the nunnery tomorrow.

[Big Al]

Gentlemen, may I suggest that everyone pours themselves a decent glass of port, takes a deep draft from a good cigar and retires to read the first paragraph of the 2nd column of page 74 specifically the last sentence.

If this fails to resolve the issue I have a decent pair of pistols that I am only too happy to make available to you at 7.30am behind the nunnery tomorrow.

Well spotted, HobbitMiles! I'd forgotten about that, which is why I hadn't made any reference to it. I knew there was a reason why the infantry shouldn't form into line, which would be most inadvisable in real life, but couldn't remember a rule about it and just thought it was because it wasn't recommended. Anyway, the question's been answered so everything is sorted out now.