6mm Black Powder

[Ryththa]

I am merrily (slowly) building a WSS army for the great Black Powder system, using the fantastic Front Rank 28mm figures. However, I am a wargamer to the very core and so I am prone to wandering down paths that are best avoided.....such as seriously considering a second Black Powder period but using 6mm figures; possibly SYW or Napoleonics, a period I have successfully avoided for some thirty years.

has anyone else found themselves on this tricky path? I am trying to work out how best to base these 6mm figures. Ideally for me there would be a unit on a single base, all well painted and each set as a mini scene as 6mm figures are best used. The tricky bit for me is how to get around the changes in formation without having to buy two or three battalions for each unit, one in each of the possible formations. Another way might be to simply pack a 15mm scale unit with 6mm figures but that is just as expensive and time consuming (my poor 28mm will never get finished!!). the only other option would be to have several bases to a unit but I would really like to avoid that if at all possible.

If anyone says 'you should have done the WSS in the 6mm in that case and used the Front Rank catalogue for the more complicated stuff' i will drown myself in a bucket!! damn the obvious in hindsight is painful!

All help greatfully received.

[grant]

Funny you should post this.

I just spent the last 2 hours organizing my Baccus 6mm for the Hundorf scenario in the Last Argument of Kings books.

I am using the http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Armies website and the book to organize my OOB. I will be basing them as follows, I think:

Infantry: two stands of 4, one behind the other, equals a company. I have MDF 30mm bases, but I have been toying with the idea of using 20mm by Victrix as I have a couple of hundred spare. It looks fuller. Probably will go this road.
Cavalry: two horse per stand equals a squadron. Again, the 20mm bases look better.
Artillery: Probably will base one gun per 40mm Victrix base. I normally use those for 28mm basing, so I have a stash. I also have limbers, as I can afford them in 6mm, not a chance in 28mm!
Generals: likely will use a round base, 25mm for Brigade, and a scenic larger 40mm round base for the General. May use GW or may cut my own out of plasticard.

Also, building are DIRT CHEAP! I have enough for two or more good sized villages now, probably for the equivalent cost of a couple of houses for 28mm.

Board size? Not sure on this one. Likely stick with a 6x4 as there are a lot of units moving around.

I have the entire army for Prussia and Austria organized using a tray, looks daunting even in 6mm!

Let's keep each other motivated...

Total cost for all the figures, some buildings, and all the bases worked out to be around 155GBP. $250ish Canadian. That's still not "cheap" but imagine all this in 28mm. It would be ... staggering...

ps,
This is my working OOB:

The Battle of Hundorf, 2 August 1762

Austrian Order of Battle

Commanders
Army Commander Brigadier Löwenstein
4 brigade commanders

Infantry
Irish regiment??? O’Kelly - 2 battalions of 5 companies
German regiment Lothringen - 2 battalions of 5 companies
German regiment Pallavicini - 1 battalion of 5 companies
Hungarian regiment Gyulai - 2 battalions of 5 companies
Hungarian regiment Esterházy - 1 battalion of 5 companies
Converged Grenadiers - two battalions each of 4 companies

Cavalry
Stampach Cuirassiers - 6 squadrons
Pálffy Cuirassiers - 6 squadrons
Benedikt Daun Cuirassiers - 6 squadrons
Batthyányi Dragoons - 6 squadrons
Löwenstein Dragoons - 3 squadrons
Converged Carabiniers and Horse Grenadiers - 6 squadrons

Artillery
Four guns, various

Prussian Order of Battle

Commanders
Army Commander General Seydlitz
Army Second-in-Command General von Kleist
3 brigade commanders

First Brigade - Kleist
Grenadier Battalion Kalckstein - 4 companies
Grenadier Battalion Lossow - 4 companies
Grenadier Battalion Natalis - 4 companies
Grenadier Battalion Heilsburg - 4 companies
Saxon Regiment Röbel - 6 companies
Prussian Regiment Jung Stutterheim - 3 companies musketeers

Kleist Freikorps
Jägers - 3 companies
Croats - 3 companies
Grenadier Battalion Woldeck - 4 companies
Prussian Regiment Lehwaldt - 2 battalions of 6 companies

Light Cavalry Brigade
Kleist Hussars - 5 squadrons
Bellings Hussars - 5 squadrons

Cavalry Brigade
Plettenberg Dragoons - 5 squadrons
Jung Platen Dragoons - 2 squadrons
Frei Dragoons Glasenapp - 1 squadron
Krockow Dragoons - 5 squadrons

Artillery
Three 6-pounder cannons

[Phil]

I'd recommend a look at Steve Jones' 'Painting Shed' blog: http://paintingshed.blogspot.com/ His 6mm stuff is well worth a look.

Phil

[grant]

I'd recommend a look at Steve Jones' 'Painting Shed' blog: http://paintingshed.blogspot.com/ His 6mm stuff is well worth a look.

Phil

Great link Phil!

Looks like bases a whole regiment or even a brigade together on one base.

I think for BP I will base as I intended - 8 figures per company.

[Ryththa]

Wow Grant, you seem to have a serious job on your hands and, more importantly, a definate idea as to where you are going with it. I look forward to seeing how you get on. I can see why you have gone down the company route but i am not sure it is for me at this stage....although this is me I am talking about so gods know where I will end up!

Thanks for the great link Phil, very interesting indeed. It has really made me stop and think about what it is i am trying to achieve. i get the feeling that I am still thinking in old school terms with one base to a unit/battalion. The Painting Shed blog has made me stop and think, why not make each base a brigade?? that way I will get the fantastic grand scale effect I am looking for and will get to fight some grand scale battles too! The Black Powder rules would work just as well, with a few minor tweeks of course.

Blimey, where do I go from here? I am still not sure how this new idea will get around the issue of formation changes.....makes it worse if anything, but I am very enthused by both Grant's direction and Phil's link. I suppose, given the scale of things and national differences, I can get away with Brits in line and French in mixed order/column (for example). or could I???? what do you all think, is this as nuch of a problem as I am making it?

How do you all feel about the figure choice? For me it is between Adler and Baccus although only Adler do the nice casualty figures that I love for Black Powder. They are a little more expensive of course but I have always been a little put off of Bacus by the odd looking bayonets and horses.

[grant]

Yeah Baccus have huge bayonets and mongol steppe ponies. But Adler have heads like Sputnik on a stick! So fo me it was Baccus without much thought. Peter has great service too.

Tempted sorely now to do a battalion per base, but how to handle movement etc - column vs line will not work unless a counter is used; that's less appealing.

[Ryththa]

temptation is such a dangerous thing isn't it. Where does this leave you now after all your hard work yesterday?

This issue of how to move or change formation with one unit on a single base is a problem and it is causing me headaches. The more linear periods are far more straight forward compared to Napoleonics. Who can afford the time and resources to make multiple units for each battalion to account for the various formations! A great idea of course but......

We could use markers to indicate formation but that totally misses the point of the look of things. These arguments are begining to make the more straight forward SYW formations look more appealing but far from simple. What monster have we unleashed?????? There must be a solution to this issue...somewhere.

I will certainly have a second (actually fifth or sixth) look at Baccus, perhaps order a few and take a closer look. i have used Adler for my AWI stuff with great effect but keep hearing Baccus. I could easily buy the Adler casualties for the Baccus troops of course.

[Comte Michel]

Back in the day we used to fight Corps level Napoleonic battles with 6mm (Heroics and Ros) figures on company bases, using WRG 1685-1845 Rules with amendments for 6mm by the late great Bob O'Brien. I really really would not recommend it if you plan on fighting large battles. It's very fiddly, takes ages to deploy armies on table and after a few hours of combat you feel like you've actually been in a battle.

I'm in the middle now of rebasing all my Napoleonic 6mm stuff on battalion bases for Black Powder and so far they look very nice. Each battalion is on a single base in column formation, with skirmishers on a separate base which can be placed behind the column when not deployed, or in front if in mixed formation, which would be the default. Line or square formation would be indicated with counters.

Bases are 60mm wide (the column takes up about 30mm, 48 figures) so allows space between columns for deployment into line, as would be the case in real battlefield formations. An artillery battery will also go on a 60mm base. As for cavalry I was thinking of a squadron per base to avoid the problem of small cavalry brigades but I haven't made a final decision yet. I may compromise at 2 squadrons per base with the odd single squadrons as small units.

When I was planning all this I briefly flirted with the idea of a whole brigade on a single base but discarded it as being too inflexible.

[Ryththa]

You seem to be working towards the ideas that I have had, are the counters to mark line/square formations causing any difficulties or looking too untidy?

how many figures are you using for your units?

[grant]

Interesting. Of course I am painting up SYW so I don't have the same formations as Naps.

I would like to see a pic of a base if you have one, comte?

SYW might be easier to do this with for Black Powder and I like the idea of a whole Battalion on a base. Some regiments in the OOB have two BN.

More to think on...