68 Years Ago Today

[grant]

I can never work out if it was a good thing or a bad thing that Hitler and Stalin were around at the same time. On the one hand, without one the other may well have taken over the world. On the other hand, fate had a spare crazy immensely powerful dictator waiting in the wings once the first one was offed. I guess it's better than the one taking over after the other had ruled the world for fifty years.

I think someone who's good at these types of things should do a comparative pie chart showing the levels of accomplishment of both loonies. That's great fun just waiting to be explored.

[Eumerin]

I can never work out if it was a good thing or a bad thing that Hitler and Stalin were around at the same time. On the one hand, without one the other may well have taken over the world. On the other hand, fate had a spare crazy immensely powerful dictator waiting in the wings once the first one was offed. I guess it's better than the one taking over after the other had ruled the world for fifty years.

imo, Hitler would never have taken the Soviet Union. And Stalin's purges of the army actually made it possible for the Germans to advance further than they otherwise would have done (though the fact that Stalin brought a lot of those purged officers back when the Germans invaded helped tremendously). Finally, while it can't be pinned as a "Stalin" thing, a USSR with fewer territorial ambitions might have avoided annoying some of the Axis Minors to the point where the Finns and Romanians might not have joined the war (can't remember why the Hungarians joined, so that might have been unavoidable). The Finns joined because of the Soviets' attempts to seize parts of Finland, and the Romanians joined due to the loss of Besarabia in 1940.

The big question mark revolves around Stalin without Hitler. And I don't know where that would have ultimately ended up.

[grant]

though the fact that Stalin brought a lot of those purged officers back when the Germans invaded helped tremendously).

I knew he was a Necromancer!

[Eumerin]

though the fact that Stalin brought a lot of those purged officers back when the Germans invaded helped tremendously).

I knew he was a Necromancer!

Shush, you!

Unlike many other dictators, Stalin was smart enough to only send his purged military officers into virtual "exile" (still within the country, but out of work and unable to coordinate against him) so that he could bring them back in the event of an emergency... such as a massive invasion by Germany.

[grant]

though the fact that Stalin brought a lot of those purged officers back when the Germans invaded helped tremendously).

I knew he was a Necromancer!

Shush, you!

[Cubster]

Unlike many other dictators, Stalin was smart enough to only send his purged military officers into virtual "exile" (still within the country, but out of work and unable to coordinate against him) so that he could bring them back in the event of an emergency... such as a massive invasion by Germany.

Well, no more than a third of them came back didn't they? Or is my memory flawed?

[janner]

And 70 years ago was the Battle of Midway (June 4-7, 1942)!

Apparently early June was an auspicious time for the Western Allies.

There was also the small matter of Bagration somewhere to the east of Germany later in the month, which sealed the fate of millions of Europeans to live under an alternative totalitarian regime. Bit of a lose/lose at that end of Europe...

Oh, that's just Western propaganda. You lot got the Lada, the Trabant, and other innovations, like a well engineered wall. How can you complain?

'You lot'

[grant]

Always wanted a Trabi.


No, not really.

[Eumerin]

Unlike many other dictators, Stalin was smart enough to only send his purged military officers into virtual "exile" (still within the country, but out of work and unable to coordinate against him) so that he could bring them back in the event of an emergency... such as a massive invasion by Germany.

Well, no more than a third of them came back didn't they? Or is my memory flawed?

Could be. I don't know the numbers involved, so it's possible that the majority of them were never returned to active duty for one reason or another. Said reasons could, of course, include the death of the individual in question.

[Cubster]

Aye. I know the purges turned out to be not quite as severe as previously thought when the records became public knowledge in the early nineties. Funny enough a book I recently finished about British and American intelligence during WW2 said that Hitler planted forged documents hinting at conspiracy among Stalin's senior military to fool him into crippling his own military.

If true, it's absolutely textbook Hitler strategy prior to an invasion - unsettling and destabilising through espionage and propaganda before attempting a military intervention. See how well he kept the Allies on the hop, dithering with indecision as he scooped up Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland and Norway by various means.