Thomas Grantham & Thomas Blackwall

[Cuchulann]

Has anyone any idea of the colour of the regimental flags of Colonel Thomas Grantham and Sir Thomas Blackwall and any devices they may have used on their flags. I know that Grantham had Russet coats and Blackwall probably had black coats, but I have drawn a blank so far on the flags for Grantham and I have found what appears to be a white flag with a greyhound or similarly thin dog as device for Blackwall's or Blackwell's on an ECW society website.

[westwaller]

Ok, essentially you are going to be disappointed with the information I can give you on this As with most things ECW) I cannot find that much on these two regiments, however it is highly unlikely that Blackwalls, wore black coats, it is more likely that their colours were black. I would also be cautious of the dog device, on a white field as that sounds very similar to that of Col Talbot's (as observed by Symonds) As for Granthams, Stuart Peachey has their coats as tawney lined white in 1642. As for their colours, there is some argument that the colours usually attributed to Brookes regiment (purple field with white or yellow stars according to heraldic rules) could actually be that of Granthams according to Peachey & Princes Flag & Colours. Of course this book is now thirteen years old, so it may be that other sources have come to light I do not know of

[Cuchulann]

Thanks, that's much appreciated. At least I now have some basis to design flags for these regiments, even if the evidence is scarce.

I have just been on a heraldic website and now know where the ECW society got their flag and device for Thomas Blackwall/Blackwell.

[1642]

The source for Black is as follows and I believe refers to the Regimental colour.

E.67.31 A Briefe and exact relation of the most material remarkable passages that hapned in the late well formed (and as valiantly defended) Siege laid before the City of Glocester. John Dorney

This is in August 1643 at the siege of Gloucester.

The same night the enemy making an approach in Barton Street,our cannon killed six of them,whereof one was a Lieutenant Colonel,and another a Captain of the Queens Black Regiment under Colonel Blackwell.

[westwaller]

Yes thats it, @1642.
@Cuchulann , I have had a look at the Blackwell heraldry, and would personally be inclined to have a black field with the devices being the yellow balls shown at the top of the Blackwell's cresthttp://www.4crests.com/blackwell-coat-of-arms.html (plates or orbs? I cannot think what they are called) as your conjectural flag for Blackwells. It would then look similar to other known ECW Flags. (just a thought)

I have looked on several sites like the one above, and none tells me the reason for the dog? Did you find out the relevance of it?

[Cuchulann]

I have looked on several sites like the one above, and none tells me the reason for the dog? Did you find out the relevance of it?

I have not found anything about the relevance of the dog yet, but I will keep looking.

The idea of using the roundels on a black flag seems to be a good one, at least as good as using the dog anyway. The dog flag I was less happy about anyway.

These are the finished Blackwell flags, feasible?

[westwaller]

Looks right to me I did come across this toohttp://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Blackwell if you fancy a posher flag, perhaps using the gold lion in place of the roundels? Honestly though, I would stick with the roundels.

[Invisible officer]

Could there be a connection between Blackwall and the Isle of dogs?

[westwaller]

Yes...

The Isle of Dogs was connected to the rest of London by the London and Blackwall Railway, opened in 1840 and progressively extended thereafter. In 1902, the ferry to Greenwich was replaced by the construction of the Greenwich foot tunnel, and Island Gardens park was laid out in 1895 providing views across the river. The London and Blackwall Railway closed in 1926.

but probably not the way you meant...

[Cuchulann]

As for Granthams, Stuart Peachey has their coats as tawney lined white in 1642. As for their colours, there is some argument that the colours usually attributed to Brookes regiment (purple field with white or yellow stars according to heraldic rules) could actually be that of Granthams according to Peachey & Princes Flag & Colours. Of course this book is now thirteen years old, so it may be that other sources have come to light I do not know of

I have been thinking about Grantham's flag and considering what you have said with regards to Brookes flag, would it be too far fetched to suppose that maybe the flags were similar and if so would a dark blue flag with either white or yellow stars be feasible? Purple and dark blue can sometimes get mistaken for each other and it may have been that they were very similar in tone etc.