Pike & Shotte Units

[Correus]

Okay...for some reason I'm having problems wrapping my mind around the Pike & Shotte units.

From what I understand, a unit of pikemen with two sleeves of shotte is actually three units - 1 of pike and 2 of shotte. Is this correct? If so, then my pike & shotte unit is actually 3 units?! Should there be three commands?

Over on Saxon Dog's page he is showing three separate commands - http://saxondog.blogspot.com/2011/02/warrens-slow-progress.html. This is the first time I've seen this but it would make sense if they are three separate units.

I know Mikelands units are like this:

I base my units on an out of the box style. So 24 muskets 12 pike, 4 command, plus I have added and extra 4 pike each.

Not sure what the extra 4 pikes are for... Care to elaborate Mikeland?

He goes on to say:

I know some folk build smaller units, 16 muskets, 8-10 pike plus command. But I think the massed ranks of musket and larger pike blocks look great.

The pike & shotte units I've devised are purely based on other peoples' armies. I've seen them anywhere from 12S to 8P (6 shotte per sleeve), 16S to 16P, 24S to 16P, 24S to 24P and several other combinations.

I've posted this pic before, but it helps illustrate what I'm talking about.



What kind of ratio of pike:shotte do you all use and why?

Also, what type of Pike & Shotte unit would have armoured pikemen - heavy? I would like to have at least one unit with armoured pikemen but I'm wondering if a unit like this needs to be balanced, you know, for every unit of armoured pikemen you need two units of unarmoured pikemen. What are your thoughts?

[Correus]

I found the following picture and thought I'd share.



It was stolen from the following blog post:

http://impactandsalvo.devhub.com/blog/720643-infantry-training-english-civil-war/

I have a question about this but not sure how to ask it....

[grant]

When I built my WH ECW army, I based them as 12 pike, 2 sleeves of 8 shotte. Then some Forlorn Hope.

On my phone right now, when I get back home I'll check out that pic you found better - looks intriguing.

[Cubster]

The ECW, although a relatively short conflict, saw a great leap forward in the evolution of at least British military organisation and doctrine, combined with all the malarkey going on across the channel.

Muskets were expensive, not particularly reliable (at least to begin with), slow to load and needed some training to get to grips with. Ammunition and powder were expensive and frankly an untrained man holding a musket and carrying ball and powder was probably a waste of all three. A pike was cheap and easier to use and at the start of the ECW the ratio of pike to shot in most armies was probably around 1:1.

As the conflict wore on developments were made in the manufacture and the doctrine of the musket and it became a more potent weapon on the battlefield. By the end of the war more and more men had muskets and fewer had pikes, so the ratio was down to maybe 1:3 or even less. Why have pike at all? Well, they were a solid defence for the muskets to form around to prevent them being ridden down by cavalry or overwhelmed in hand-to-hand.

They would be directed as a single unit since it was rare for the pike to be split from the muskets - except for very specific missions - although the pike carried pike and the musket carried musket and stuck to their specific weapons.

My heartfelt advice is to grab a decent book on the subject because it's often easier to understand a well-informed author laying out the foundations logically between two covers than it is snatching up the random posts on a site.

[mikeland]

Extra 4 pikemen are purely because I like the look of larger pike blocks.

To clarify:

For the new pike and shot rules: pike, shot and horse are separate units that are joined together to make battalions.

So my 'units' of pike and shot are actually 'battalions' composed of 1 pike unit 2 shot units and a 4 man command.

Hope that helps.

Army composition/ratios are quite varied throughout the war, so go with what you like.

Like grant I am on my phone, will check the picture out later.

I will post the full composition of both of my ECW armies when I get back tomorrow.

[mikeland]

This is very informative and a quick read:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1846034698

[Invisible officer]

The main reason for less muskets at the beginning was that you can produce pikes far easier in an emergency than muskets.
Untrained musketeers are a waste but untrained Pike a big risk. Ask some local reenactors. The old slapstick with the ladder...... .