Shattered ? Break test if... ?

by **Grignak** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:38 am

Hello,I have a couple of questions about the rules. The first one is probably stupid, but I couldn't get a definite answer just by reading the rulebook (or I missed something) : how do we count casualties once a unit is shaken ?It is said that additional casualties are discarded, but to be sure, here's an example :A unit with a stamina of 6 is already shaken, having taken 6 casualties.Then, in combat, assuming it holds ground with no problem, it receives further casualties :round 1 : 4 casualtiesround 2 : 2 casualtiesround 3 : 6 casualtiesround 4 : 12 casualtiesafter which round is the unit shattered ? Round 2 because the cumulated total is 12 ?Round 3 because the total is 12 from this round casualties and the 6 from the shaken state (those from round 1 and 2 being discarded) ? My second question is about the break tests to take from ranged attacks.p. 72, it is said that if one 6 is scored on the "to hit" throw, a test must occur. Then if two 6 are scored, a test must occur.The next page tells us that only one test is taken per turn.So, I'm wondering what's the meaning of that second 6 score. It seems redundant because the first one already triggered a break test. Thanks in advance for your answers.

by **Big Al** » Mon Apr 25, 2011 12:35 pm

HiI believe the unit is shattered when it reaches double its stamina, so in your example it would be after round 2. As to the second 6, I have no idea. There is no modification for it in the break test modifiers, only excess casualties are deducted from the dice roll. No doubt Rick will be along to clear that one up for us. It maybe the first real omission from the rules! However, the playsheets don't give any different answer to the book either. I say that because there was a difference with the BP book and QRS.

by **getback** » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:05 pm

Shattered in Round 3. Each round excess casualties (over the stamina value) of less than double the stamina will cause a break test. If the stamina value is met (ie 6 in excess of shaken) in any round then the unit is shattered. In each case the excess casualties are still redistributed to the supports. You need to read it a couple of times but it is clear in the book. The two-sixes thing applies where a 6 is needed to achieve a hit. If you neeed 4,5,6 or 5,6 then a single 6 triggers a break test. If you have to score 6 to hit then you need two hits to trigger the break test.

by **rick priestley** » Sat May 28, 2011 12:10 pm

Casualties in h-2-h and shattered units.Yes - someone else did point out that I hadn't quite explained this as thoroughly as I might have - I shall try to make ammends! This is perhaps the easiest way of remembering...At the end of each h-2-h round count up the total casualties on your fighting unit.If the result is more than 6 (stamina value) then all excess are distributed amongst supporting units or, if there are no supporting units, discarded. So a unit never carries forward more casualties than its stamina value. 6 is the most casualties a unit can have after the combat has been worked out (assuming stamina 6 of course).If, when it comes to counting up the total number of casualties on a unit, it has suffered 12 (double stamina) then it is deemed to be shattered and is treated as having automatically failed a break test. Take the unit off.Even where units are shattered any casualties suffered in excess of stamina (6) are distributed amongst supporting units where present.So... in your example the unit is shattered after round 3 - as the casualties inflicted in round 1 and 2 are discarded/redistributed at the end of each round. Like getback says:) 6's and break testsThe 6's question... this refers only to ranged attacks. It doesn't affect hand-to-hand attacks at all. It works like this.A unit suffering ranged attacks from one or more enemies must take a break test if any of the dice rolled score a 6 'to hit'. Because only one test is ever taken it is necessary to wait until all the ranged attacks have been made before testing, as casualties can sometimes affect the test score. However, it does not matter how many 6's are rolled - one test is taken after all 'shooting' has been worked out. Yes - sometimes we get carried away and test before we should! - but regardless of that only one test is required:)However - exception! - if the 'shooters' need to score a 6 to hit in the first place then their attacks are deemed to be rather weak - so the first roll of a 6 is ignored for purposes of causing a break test. This means that 2 6's will need to be scored ito trigger a break test in that situation. The first 6 still hits and may or may not cause a casualty, but it does not trigger a break test.The reasoning for this is that otherwise it is too easy to get a lucky shot from a shaken enemy at long range that triggers a test and causes disorder. This is why Cataphracts and Heavy Infantry are -1 to hit - it means they will always be 6's to hit at long range and therefore harder to stop with missile fire.Lengthy explanation I know... I hope no-one nodded off during that lot... :) Rick

by **Sirius** » Fri May 25, 2012 7:27 am

Can a moderator make this thread a sticky?

This is an essential clarification regarding the rules of shaken/shattered - which are a bit ambiguous as they appear in the book.

Too valuable, in my opinion to be buried deep in the sub-forum..

by **Big Al** » Fri May 25, 2012 9:15 am

Good idea. I have replied to keep it bumped up. Perhaps Phil or Paul can make it so? Please?

by **wargame_insomniac** » Fri May 25, 2012 3:40 pm

I had a similar query just last week so would definitely appreciate a formal FAQ answer and thread stickied.

Thanks

James

by **sandman36** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:55 pm

Just bumping this again to keep it around until it gets stuck.

by **wargame_insomniac** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:18 pm

So lets assume that a standard sized unit takes the following casualties in successive combat rounds:
round one: 5 casualties
round two: 4 casualties
round three: 3 casulaties
Assume that each combat is with no supports so can't transfer excess casualties.

After round one the unit is clearly bloodied but not yet shaken. After round two the unit is clearly shaken but not yet broken. However if no supports it can't transfer the excess. So at the end of round two does it have a cumulative total of 6 casualties or 9 casualties?

So far I have played with 2 opponents and they both played it differently.

I am still unsure. To me it makes most sense if it has 9 casualties after round two, which would mean that broken after round three.

Cheers

James

by **Alan Charlesworth** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:27 pm

wargame_insomniac wrote:So lets assume that a standard sized unit takes the following casualties in successive combat rounds:
round one: 5 casualties
round two: 4 casualties
round three: 3 casulaties
Assume that each combat is with no supports so can't transfer excess casualties.

After round one the unit is clearly bloodied but not yet shaken. After round two the unit is clearly shaken but not yet broken. However if no supports it can't transfer the excess. So at the end of round two does it have a cumulative total of 6 casualties or 9 casualties?

So far I have played with 2 opponents and they both played it differently.

I am still unsure. To me it makes most sense if it has 9 casualties after round two, which would mean that broken after round three.

Cheers

James

After round two if the unit has survived any Break Test the excess casualties are discarded. So assuming its Stamina was 6 then it only has 6 casualties.

See page 65, right hand column, second paragraph. It is clearly stated.