Irregular Troops

[Cubster]

All sounds cool.

[ady2650]

Ady i would also recommend
http://napolun.com/mirror/napoleonistyk ... ssacks.htm



If Napoleon had had Cossacks in his army
he'd have been Emperor of China long ago."
- Cossack officer to Caulaincourt in 1812



it throws up some points of interest eg; cossack lance was 1.5 feet longer than polish etc,their use of firepower for noise mainly --tactics etc etc.

looking a the regular/irregular variations both yourself and Alan are trying out - i'd generally agree and will try out myself.definitely the Kalmucks ,Bashkirs etc should be warband with the others regular and skrmish.I play on a 9x5 table and use 12 fig cav units so find when deployed in 2x6 ranks space isnt such an issue but 1x12 leads to no space particularily for cossacks to outflank , since you cant charge a flank if starting in a frontal arc .I think cavalry should be allowed in some sort of battle column too, to reflect the closer formations used esp if terrain or quality of troopers restricted fully shaken out deployments eg; Murats deployments at Liebertolkwitz 1813. Both of you say they can charge only shaken or disordered opponents isnt that the general rule for cavalry v Infantry in BP anyway,or are you extending it to enemy cavalry/artillery?


The Germans used new words in their prayer, "Save us Lord, from Cossacks".
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I still feel they should have a FEAR,LOOT and BOOTY special rule when in the rear of the enemy. Maybe a -1 to their opponent morale saves when in charge range.While the cossacks themselves could suffer an additional -1 to command rolls when in the vicinity to enemy baggage or any unoccupied buildings/built up areas as they MAY want to go loot and check out the local bootylicious talent


which brings me to one final thought based on games played if you use unreliable for infantry eg; Landwehr but game with all 8 rated generals(not using any personal characterisrics as in book) its actualy not too much of a hinderance while they are kept in column .Its very hard to game with 7 rated generals or less,as they can often do nothing all battle.So any ideas to represent the usual of Allied generals /staff especially in the earlier years being inferior to the french,while not making the game uneventful for any Alled player.

Thanks for this , Yes I do look at Napoleon his armies and enemies, I do find it a little hit and miss at times though but overall its usefull

still don't like fear for them, nothing to stop yours cauing fear and mine not and comparing notes later and yes the shaken and disordered thing does apply to all troops in our games.

on the general staff rating you could alter the role on the qualities of commanders chart say 1 or a 2 is low for say Austrians/Russians and the like I have a few other ideas but I have got to say them for my suppliment

[ady2650]

"A Complete Listing of All Cossack Formations in 1812. By Dr. Frhr. von Baumgartner makes a fantastic argument for regular and irregular cossacks/tribal cavalry. Its a great read for you Russian army lovers and is on line ..."

Thanks for that chap.Looking forward to taking on your Russians soon.

The French march on Moscow is one my favourite periods of the Napoleonic Wars. The return trip, where the Irregular Cossacks really came into their own, less so ..

thats where they get their real fear factor hammering French stragglers and the like

[ady2650]

A question, while you're there giving these Cossacks additional rules. It's one thing to give them Fear, or causing fear, when they are attacking baggage train guars or small units of skirmishers and villagers, but would larger units be that frightened of them? Would they shake in terror at being charged by them, I wonder, or would they just stand and fight them off? Safety in numbers and what have you. What I am getting at is, perhaps that fear factor should only apply in certain conditions or against certain units. Maybe green units would be affected by their reputation as well?
I don't know enough about them to make an outright objection, or anyhing, so I thought I'd pose the question in the hope that it renews the perspective.

our gaming group is play testing them as previously stated, come along and have a game Al

[Alan Charlesworth]

Not keen on having a 'fear' factor.

I an sure the average Russian was more fearful of French Cuirassiers than the average Frenchman was of Cossacks on a battlefield

I don't see many people gaming the kind of retreat from Moscow type scenario that might justify fear of Cossacks.

[Big Al]

]
our gaming group is play testing them as previously stated, come along and have a game Al

I would if I can get away. However, tend not to be able to at weekends. Sounds mad, but it is all down to the wife and her job. It makes it difficult for me to get away. I can on occasion, though, so when are you next playing and I'll see what can be done.

As to giving Cossacks a Fear factor, I am just wary of making something too powerful or effective than they really were. This can happen without being intentional. Of course, Cossacks had a fearsome reputation, but unfortunately, Black Powder isn't a game where the sort of situation that Cossacks earned their reputation, occurs that often. Units that break after combat or shooting are removed from the table, so light cavalry cannot be used in the way they really were, running down fleeing enemy. Not that many players field baggage trains, either, so that would be scenario specific conditions, really.
I'm not trying to say don't add these rules, just take a step back and make sure that you aren't acting on a passion. I have witnessed this before during my own playtesting experiences.

[Alan Charlesworth]

I think it was Grecian who brought up the fear factor idea. I don't think it features in Ady's proposal?

[Big Al]

You might be right, Alan, but a word about caution doesn't hurt.

[ady2650]

You might be right, Alan, but a word about caution doesn't hurt.

Indeed Mr Charlesworth is correct, it does not fearture (see what I did there ) in my take on Cossacks, I like to keep things as balanced as possible and fear could tip it too much IMHO

Caution is my watchword as well so thats all good

[grecian1959]

thanks for replies guys-- i was just looking at possibilities in relation to using cossacks ontable.i dont want them to be cast aside say like persian levies etc as points wise cheap but not effective so not used gamerwise.When historically they were at the battles in a very definite sideline and afterbattle role though I do agree.I smiled when i saw in one description that the cossacks were ordered to police the kalmucks/bashkirs etc from harassing civilians etc Only a russian staff officer could devise that one.
Also i suppose i want to pose both problems and advantages for Allied generals with mixed arms commands within lower level brigade commands ontable 1812-15 too