Things Newbies Don't Like about Black Powder!

[King Tiger]

Points = competitive
Black powder = none competitive system.

I love the command system personally
The lack of points is great
No army lists is not an issue, BP is obviously aimed at napoleonics, so people playing should have an idea on the difference between your average British soldier to your French soldier and use the abilities lists to alter that, but hey I'm sure a book will come soon
Movement again not an issue, the book says they prefer BIG tables, you just alter that yourself.

No issues here.

[Alan Charlesworth]

You know what the next request is going to be, don't you?

A scenarios book!

What a brilliant idea - sign me up now

In the meantime there a loads of historical scenarios and refights already on the net for free. And I constantly use these old standbys for generic ideas:

'Scenarios for Wargames' by C S Grant
'Programmed Scenarios for Wargames' by C S Grant
'Scenarios for all Ages' by C S Grant and Stuart Asquith
'Battlegames Tabletop Teasers Vol 1' C S Grant

Who is that C S Grant bloke anyway

And all the original teasers are available here:

http://steve-the-wargamer-teasers.blogspot.co.uk

Thats hundreds and hundreds of scenarios. You will be a busy wargamer to get through that lot! And you didn't even need to think for yourself.

[ady2650]

Things I don't like about BP are......nothing really. Points and army lists are for the weak and unevolved.

Seriously, I always tend to associate points systems with tournament play - which I hate with a passion verging on the unhealthy. I always disliked the way, for instance, ancients players would assemble armies of equal points totals but of such widely disparate historical periods that they would never have actually met. No consideration for history, just selection based on what the individual player thought gave the best chance of a win.

Regarding scenarios that are historical but at first glance one-sided - that's what objectives are for.

Wow isn't it amazing, different peoples experiences of Tournaments, I have played and organised many WAB or WHFB touney and from it have gained many friends up and down the British Isles as well as in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the USA. That said I do know what you are on about with the 'old historical tourny's' , I guess its how you organise/ approach the concept. I do know a lot of people who have hated the thought of a tournament (thinking they are full of beards) only to find that they have a wonderful time

[Big Al]

I have all of those, Alan. Posted Steve The Wargamer's link in the files section of the BP and HC Yahoo Groups.

I'm with Comte on Tournaments. Absolutely detest them!

[Jammers]

There are tourneys and there are tourneys. I cut my gaming teeth on the WAB circuit with unhistorical match-ups and Pitched. Battles. Most competitions now are in period/book.

And now i've moved on. Its not for me anymore but that's not to say they're bad or inferior in some way. Its just not how i want to spend my wkds or gaming for that matter. But like Ady, and many others i suspect, i've made a lot of very good mates over the years who i first met at comps. I've also gamed against the odd guy at a club here and there who wouldn't be seen dead at a tourney but quite frankly were ...[makes universally recognised hand gesture ..] ... insular, had no idea how the game should be played and weren't open to any ideas other than how they've always played

Do lets try to be a little more mature than simply saying:

Tourney/points = bad

BP/no points = good

[Cubster]

Tourney/points = bad

BP/no points = good

And Vicey Verkey in fairness. I was wanting to express my own views without stomping over anyone else's and I absolutely accept other people have their own preferences. I won't be labelling people or trying to dictate how they want to play their games if their cup of tea is different from mine.

However, anyone who doesn't like belly pork is just wrong headed.

[Horster]

Worst case imagination: no points = only cuirassiers and old guard - well like some of those no points warhammer games back in teenage days...

But I think most BP players have grown out of this

[Eumerin]

Worst case imagination: no points = only cuirassiers and old guard - well like some of those no points warhammer games back in teenage days...

But I think most BP players have grown out of this

I would imagine that most players who are part of a regular group quickly move past this phase. Those who don't are either part of an extremely competitive group, or rapidly find themselves out of the group as people start finding excuses as to why they can't play against that particular opponent.

Tournament play tends to draw out the worst aspects of points-based lists, but that's largely because tournaments are a highly competitive environment. Most established groups don't have that same competitive attitude, in part because people know that playing that competitively will drive players away (particularly the newer players who are just getting their feet wet, and are pretty much required if a group is going to thrive).

[ady2650]

Worst case imagination: no points = only cuirassiers and old guard - well like some of those no points warhammer games back in teenage days...

But I think most BP players have grown out of this

I would imagine that most players who are part of a regular group quickly move past this phase. Those who don't are either part of an extremely competitive group, or rapidly find themselves out of the group as people start finding excuses as to why they can't play against that particular opponent.

Tournament play tends to draw out the worst aspects of points-based lists, but that's largely because tournaments are a highly competitive environment. Most established groups don't have that same competitive attitude, in part because people know that playing that competitively will drive players away (particularly the newer players who are just getting their feet wet, and are pretty much required if a group is going to thrive).

some excellent points here, as a point of reference I would comment on the current Warhammer tourney scene it breaks down to about 20 players who are very competative but play in the right spirit, about 1000 who just play the game at a turney cos they enjoy the crack and then a handfull of players and I mean a handfull who if you play them , it will destroy your gaming experience. That said those players are being actively targetted in manner of shape up or ship out.

[Alan Charlesworth]

I agree with Ady's comments. Tournaments are not as bad as some seem to think.

I have played in five of them in 40 years of gaming. The first two were in the late 70's/early 80's. In those day historical comps were full of cut-throat rules lawyer types, who would argue and throw tantrums. That experience put me off competition style games for life - or so I thought.

Last year an old pal of mine tried to convince me that the current scene was not like that and that most players were actually decent human beings

Against my better judgment I entered a two day competition. My main motivation was to get a better grasp and experience of a particular rule set at a time when I was struggling to find anyone to play that game system with. To my great surprise everyone I played in the six games I had was a courteous and pleasant opponent. One has become a good friend.

I had a similar experience at the other two one day tournaments I played in last year

I was also pleased to see that those comps had a Favourite Player prize or similar title. The idea is that you vote for the person who you most enjoy playing. Not a vote on playing ability but on how much you enjoyed the game with that person. I was pleased to win one of those which meant far more to me the winning the Tournament

I have no plans to play in any comps this year as I have no shortage of gaming friends for the rules I am now playing the most. I still prefer scenarios/refights to comp style games. I also found playing three fast games in a day quite tiring and intense. Its very different from a full days normal gaming.

But the experience did change my prejudiced view about tourney/competition style gaming. There are actually some decent people doing it