after battle questions

[grecian1959]

Guys we played out a 1813 pick up battle today of french with allies versus a russo-prussian force. After rolling for extras it actually turned out to be a infantry only with some artillery slog 3 commands a side. some things turned up as we used the basic rules -looking for thoughts,ideas and help thanks peter

1-should attack column formation get the +1 bonus in combat?
2-if a unit is in mixed formation does it measure its 12"initiative and any support it gives or recieves from the skirmishers or the main body?
3-Do tiny units offer support? do tiny units or artillery add to brigade numbers?
4-Do mixed formation(attack column) get +1 bonus?
5-Should units whose stat lines do not include "skirmish" eg regular line for example as a special option get Skirmish +1 firing bonus?
6-Should disordered units in your own command phase be at least allowed to retire a move to reform, especially if its in 12" of opponent ie; initiaive distance? instead of being stuck in position esp for disordered cavalry?????
7- if 2 units attack 1 unit and one of the attackers is disordered should both then be disordered? If one fails to go in because of a break test should both then fail?
8- are rally/follow me orders the only ones a commander can issue per phase or does he attempt all pther orders and try and do it as the last order type?

[Big Al]

Here goes

1-should attack column formation get the +1 bonus in combat?

This has been raised lots of times. I don't believe that attack columns get the +1 bonus because the chart specifically mentions that it is against shooting, not hand to hand. Others disagree with me but it is all because of the interpretation of the first two sentences on page 66 under Morale saves, but when you look at all the charts for combat modifiers that one is not there. As I said, while it says "in every respect", the chart specifies the +1 morale save against shooting. Rick has yet to verify this one.

2-if a unit is in mixed formation does it measure its 12"initiative and any support it gives or recieves from the skirmishers or the main body?

You measure from the skirmishers. They are still part of the main unit, just ranging forward of it a little.

3-Do tiny units offer support? do tiny units or artillery add to brigade numbers?

Yes, if they are of a troop type that can offer support, then they are valid.

4-Do mixed formation(attack column) get +1 bonus?

Another one that has been raised a number of times. A unit in mixed formation is just a unit with some of its members out skirmishiing ahead. First sentence, page 78.

5-Should units whose stat lines do not include "skirmish" eg regular line for example as a special option get Skirmish +1 firing bonus?

No, they aren't skirmishers. They can only adopt skirmish order (or Open Order) to move through difficult terrain. When they have moved through that terrain they reform to their default formation. When being targeted in skirmish order, they will benefit from the -1 to hit and will only fire a single shot, but no other benefits that apply to skirmishers.

6-Should disordered units in your own command phase be at least allowed to retire a move to reform, especially if its in 12" of opponent ie; initiaive distance? instead of being stuck in position esp for disordered cavalry?????

That is for you to decide as a house rule. As written, no they shouldn't. They have been caught in an unfortunate position. If you want to rescue them, move other units to support them and help them out. One of the difficulties of command that BP illustrates well imho.

7- if 2 units attack 1 unit and one of the attackers is disordered should both then be disordered? If one fails to go in because of a break test should both then fail?

No, why? If one unit is disordered, why should the other be? If disordered, the unit couldn't have moved into combat, unless that disorder was caused by closing fire. If that was the case, then the second unit will not have endured closing fire because the charged unit can only fire closing fire once and would do so at the first unit to charge it.
If one unit fails a break test why should the other one? Each unit rolls seperately for a break test. It is quite possible for one unit to break and another to pass the test.

8- are rally/follow me orders the only ones a commander can issue per phase or does he attempt all pther orders and try and do it as the last order type?

Either of those orders is the last one that the commander can make for that turn. If you want him to issue orders to other units, then you must attempt to issue orders to those other units first. Once you issue the Rally or Follow Me order, that commander's turn is over.

Hope all this helps

[DeanMoto]

Well the Attack Column does get a better Morale Save of 3+

Mixed Formation is just that; not an Attack Column - the skirmishers would need to form back into the ranks and the unit reform into an Attack Column

Disordered units cannot move (at least normal movements and definitely not charge)

Follow Me & Rally Orders are last, and can only be given to units that haven't already received orders that turn.

[HobbitMiles]

Whilst the letter of the rules states that tiny units can support in hand to hand combat I think that I'd be inclined not to allow it given that the description of tiny units is of scouts and foragers etc.

[Big Al]

Whilst the letter of the rules states that tiny units can support in hand to hand combat I think that I'd be inclined not to allow it given that the description of tiny units is of scouts and foragers etc.

But you would allow them to take the break test should the fighting unit break?

[Big Al]

Well the Attack Column does get a better Morale Save of 3+

Where does it say that? It says on page 47, on the Morale Dice Modifiers Chart, "+1 Attack Column. If an infantry unit is in attack column add +1 to the score of each dice rolled against non-artillery shooting." How does that apply to hand to hand combat?

Mixed Formation is just that; not an Attack Column - the skirmishers would need to form back into the ranks and the unit reform into an Attack Column

I refer you to my earlier reference. The sentence states that a Mixed Column is an infantry unit in line or attack column with skirmishers in front. How is a mixed unit not either of those formations?

Disordered units cannot move (at least normal movements and definitely not charge)

Just to clarify, Disordered units can move, they just can't be given orders or act on initiative. Acting on initiative is an order. Only want to make sure that there is no confusion about disorder. A disordered unit can attempt to form square as a reaction to a cavalry charge, too, if it has the Form Square special rule. That square would be a disordered one which would allow the cavalry to charge home.

[grecian1959]

thanks all esp Al
i was wondering re line units who have no special rule as SKIRMISHERS but who break into mixed order for example i now see they get the fired against -1 protection bonus ,but not the +1 skirmisher firing bonus. what happens if these non skirmish types contact others in wood etc what can they do or not do since they are now in a formation not of choice?
Al am i correct to surmise then youd add the +1 attack column movement bonus to mixed order columns as well as basic attack columns? But wouldnt add the morale +1 save to either types in the combat phase.

Peter

[Alan Charlesworth]

i was wondering re line units who have no special rule as SKIRMISHERS but who break into mixed order for example i now see they get the fired against -1 protection bonus ,but not the +1 skirmisher firing bonus. what happens if these non skirmish types contact others in wood etc what can they do or not do since they are now in a formation not of choice?

The +1 shooting bonus applies to units with the Skirmish ability and to the skirmish company thrown out by a unit in Mixed Formation

If in woods then the same applies. They will also get -1 on shooting for the skirmishers/deployed artillery/not clear stat line. So these cancel each other out.

Units in woods that have gone into open order/skirmish just to move through the woods, and are not Skirmishers or in Mixed Formation will not get the +1 shooting bonus. They will also get -1 on shooting for the skirmishers/deployed artillery/not clear stat line.

am i correct to surmise then youd add the +1 attack column movement bonus to mixed order columns as well as basic attack columns?

Yes, see page 126

But wouldnt add the morale +1 save to either types in the combat phase

Mixed Attack Column becomes an Attack Column when in combat so the answer is the same for both. As to what the answer is, that is contentious. Alex and I believe that you don't get the bonus because it says on page 47 that it is against non-artillery shooting - there is no mention of combat. Others believe differently and it has never been officialy clarified.

[Big Al]

Alan's right. There was quite a discussion about this on the Yahoo Group a few weeks ago. It was all clarified then.

[grecian1959]

Thanks again for clarifications guys heres some more............
1-what formation do you allow units move over or fight on bridges?
2-same question re fording rivers?
3-replacing killed officers?
4- if an officer is still attached to a unit from the previous turn ;say doing a rally or follow me action .Can he next in the next turn issue orders while still attached etc
5-i was caught in the flank twice in our latest battle and survived well due to unusully good dice from me - is the (- 1) too light for that situation?
6-if you want units not to move have you to order them to hold each turn or if they achieved their orders last time do they require further orders to hold until you may want them to move again in future turns? i appreciate units must keep trying to achieve a previous failed order until they ae issued new ones or finally arrive LOL
7- do you use any form of cavalry in attack column -esp used by the untrained recuits in 1813-14 -Murat @ Liebertolkwitz
also frees up some tabel frontage space


Peter