State of the hobby and grumblings.

[Systempunkt]

Hello everyone,

I was musing the other day over the youth of today and our hobby (that is war-gaming and modelling).

I like many of you (and Paul himself?) come from a fantasy background, it seemed normal at the time to make models and fight with dice. However, in my discussions with the kids of today, this is no longer so.

Gamesworkshop has experienced falling profits for years now (don't have a reference but can find one if anyone doubts this). Clearly kids are not joining the hobby as they used to. This does not surprise me, the prices of gamesworkshops figures have gone up and up, anyone remember £10 tactical squad of marines?! They seem to ignore anyone who doesn't play 40k Space Marines or WFB High Elves, these get constant releases whilst others get an update every 4 years it seems. I also believe that they have lost sight of their most important consumer, the 13 year old with £10 pocket money, what can they buy these days?

This point applies not just to gamesworkshop, but all producers. The hobby has become increasingly focused upon its artistic nature. To use GW again, their boxes and magazine are adorned with pro-painted figures that create a totally unrealistic expectation and disillusion in the minds of their younger audience. Speaking again from conversations with a younger relative, kids are worried they won't be able to paint to that standard. He is only slowly realising that it doesn't matter as long as he tries his best/is having fun. Not to mention that many competitions are now judged upon painting skill.

How does this relate to warlord games?

Their plastic kits I do feel are not marketed well enough. They are not in hobbycraft or modelzone. They are simple for a youth to build and paint. Kids are learning at the age of 11 what a Roman is and latter what the second world war was. Warlords time periods are familiar to most kids and I can't help but feel could be successful with this age group.

Maybe they could market "Action packs" with maybe 5 figures in. With a simple 5 paint colour scheme.

I would also love to see Warlord develop a rule set for their Bolt Action Miniatures range. I feel sure they could do better than RoE. Second world war combat lends itself to a fast paced rule set similar to 40k.

Cheers everyone and sorry for taking your time if you think my post was rubbish!

[Colonel White]

I don't think your post is rubbish I just don't agree with much of it!

First of all its probably the wrong forum to start discussing the ins and out of GW. In a nutshell however going off last years accounts GW are doing very well as a BUSINESS ( not looked at the recent accounts). They performed very well during the recession and increased their prices to boot. They have extended their store network here in the UK with 2 new stores Wigan and Bury being on my doorstep. Their products are being sold by an ever increasing number of independants and are available in the Hobbycraft chain.

Yes GW prices are a sticking point especially if you are a parent like me! We as parents all know the cost of an item is not imporant as long as your kids are having fun and this is the market GW are looking at ( I have had this confirmed more than once by different managers). They do not look after the vets as well as they should but this is not their marketing strategy.I have had this also confirmed that they are looking at kids for involvement for around 2-3 years involvement usually prior to further education like university.More proof of the younger end market can be seen with the success of the 40K range especially the Space Marines. They are also wanting to become a onestop shop for all your fantasy/40K wargaming needs ie. tools paints gaming board etc.

I think Warlord are doing a terrific job and don't have a bad word against them and no I ain't a fanboy either ( being 47 years old). Yeah I know you may call me an old git but I can remember the old days when all we had to wargame with was bendy Airfix and Atlantic minis and metals that looked like lumps of lead and very difficult to get hold of.

Warlord along with other wargames manufacturers are available from many independants and model shops. My local shop as well as the boxed minis have nowe began to take on Warlord metals for the first time.

If you can't buy them locally then Warlord do an Excellent Mail order service.

As regards the artistic side being a model painter of over 30 years, with the modern washes and dips ( Armypainter) I don't think it has been any easier to get great looking minis on the wargames board. You only need to look a liilttle closer at the number of pics in this forum for evidence of that.

I don't think the overall hobby including GW has ever been so good and long may it continue.

[Paul @ Warlord Games]

I don't come from a fantasy background - I just worked at a Fantasy and Sci-fi company for 14 years.

My background is very much historical with WW2 being my main area of interest.

Cheers,

Paul

[Cubster]

Yes, but you dress up like an elf at weekends and cause havok in the local woods.

[Colonel White]

Just been over to Warseer regarding feedback on GW's latest accounts. THe accountant there who analysed them came to the same conclusion as me . They are selling less volume but maintaining their income streams .

This concurs with what I was stating as parents we tend to buy whatever the cost. THis does not however indicate that less people are playing GW games but perhaps fewer people are starting fewer armies from scatch which appears to be GW's policy any way with plastics. IE It doesn't make business sense to bring out a range of plastics with all the associated costs of the moulds etc and then withdrawing them after 4 years.

[Systempunkt]

Ah, sorry Paul then!

Hmm, whilst your information is correct colonel and mine wrong. It does prove what I already thought, less sales volume might suggest less youngsters taking up the hobby. GW are off setting this by pushing up prices, which makes it look ok on the surface.

Regarding your comment about discusing GW on here. That was not my intention, I used it as a vehicle for discussion.

Regarding the pictures on here comment. Is it not true that most members of the forum are not youngsters? Also, is it not likely people wouldn't post pictures of poor looking models.

And I no way was I criticising Warlord, I just feel they could do more to push their products!

Cheers to all.

[Colonel White]

Less volume of sales doesn't always mean less youngsters taking up the hobby.

It could indicate less people are starting armies from scratch as plastics are rarely changed when a new army book is developed so therefore most people will already have most of their core troops already.

Perhaps I chose a poor example on the artistic side.

I will use my son as an example who is only 9 years of age. With the aid of Army Painter Dip he has painted some Skaven Clanrats that would grace any fantasy battlefield. The point I was trying to get accross is that with the aid of the modern dips and washes its a lot easier to get superb looking minis with less effort and skill than it was say 10 years ago. There have been some beginners on this forum exhibiting their painted figures and mighty decent they have looked as well.

No I don't subscribe to the idea that a company whether it be Warlord or GW shouldn't use pro painted minis in books /advertisements. It didn't put me off in my younger days , instead it challenged me to aspire to that sort of level and I have seen kids at my local GW store really come on in their painting skills. I know that because I taught some of them the basics!

As regards my own kid I reckon he has the potential to be a Golden Demon winner one day which is more than I can say for his old man!

[phoenixman]

Warlords may not be in Hobbycraft but they are now in ToyMaster stores the same as GW models, and if a parent goes in and wants to start buying something for a child etc then the price to model ratio comparison between GW and Warlords is a no brainer as you get far more for your pound with Warlords.

perhaps those on this forum can suggest ways to 'increase' the profile of Warlords with young people, my ideas would be along the lines of;

1. hold summer 'camps' / hobbyweeks similar to GW ones where they get to paint a Battalia set etc

2. perhaps start up school leagues / inter-school comps. perhaps the winners of these leagues could be given free tickets to a wargames show near to them, thereby getting them even more interested in the hobby.

3. try to sell through hobbycraft stores and then ask clubs to assist them by running demo games on a 'launch' day at certain stores around the country. i'm sure our club would help out doing this and maybe each club could give out flyers for the newsletter sign up and perhpas a comp to win the odd box set.

just a few thoughts from me

[Systempunkt]

"those on this forum can suggest ways to 'increase' the profile of Warlords with young people"

That is what my original post was attempting to encourage. I think I over complicated things.

There must be a lot of kids out there who are either disillusioned, not interested or simply unable to afford the traditional manufacturers products (I hesitate to use GW again!). I for one would love too see this audience converted. Especially as it is my belief that the time periods are familiar to the youth of today, either via school, films or computer games.

Thanks again.

[Matt]

I wonder if Kids dont have the same levels of concentration anymore. My two have both 'done' GW stuff and I have encouraged them to look at Warlord's romans by giving them some. However they seem to find the whole thing too much effort. I blame computers of course - and their mother for letting them have a telly in their bedroom, but that's another story.

However many teachers will tell you that there are real differances in kid's attention span and expectations now-a-days. The dips help but I rather gloomily feel that most kids just wont sit down for hours to assemble and paint the figures anymore. GW overcomes this by making it so easy becasue their shops are a 'one-stop-shop' everything is provided, just like computer games. Like the good colonel I am a sad 47 y.o. who started with Airfix and then got onto minifig lumps - I remeber spending hours in the library looking at the funken and blandford books. Kids just dont do these things anymore.

Paul: do you really dress up as an elf? - the mind boggles.